Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
besoins du propos
English translation:
requirements of their respective arguments
Added to glossary by
John Holland
Oct 1, 2014 10:40
9 yrs ago
French term
Fast and Accurate
Native in: English
Works in: Russian to English, French to English, Italian to English, and 1 more.
besoins du propos
French to English
Social Sciences
Philosophy
This is from an academic text about Spinoza's philosophy:
Si la confrontation entre les deux ouvrages est périlleuse vu que l’Ethique et le Traité théologico-politique ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif, elle n’est pas pourtant impossible, à condition de soumettre systématiquement les conclusions à la contre-épreuve de la différence des genres et de vérifier si les divergences s’expliquent uniquement par les ***besoins du propos*** et la nature du sujet ou si elles témoignent d’une évolution de la pensée de Spinoza.
I can't think of a good way of expressing this idea that isn't too wordy. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Si la confrontation entre les deux ouvrages est périlleuse vu que l’Ethique et le Traité théologico-politique ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif, elle n’est pas pourtant impossible, à condition de soumettre systématiquement les conclusions à la contre-épreuve de la différence des genres et de vérifier si les divergences s’expliquent uniquement par les ***besoins du propos*** et la nature du sujet ou si elles témoignent d’une évolution de la pensée de Spinoza.
I can't think of a good way of expressing this idea that isn't too wordy. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Oct 5, 2014 13:34: John Holland Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+3
5 hrs
Selected
requirements of their respective arguments
Here is my attempt to paraphrase what the passage means:
It seems to me that the author is suggesting that, because the two texts by Spinoza have quite different aims and methods (i.e., ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif), comparison of them must involve a critical examination which takes their specific genres into consideration. In particular, it is important to note whether differences between them are really due to the (rhetorical or logical) requirements of their respective arguments, or whether they reflect actual changes in Spinoza's thought.
That's a paraphrase of the meaning, so I did not try to include all of the nuances. But I think the main idea is that the author wants to proceed cautiously, in order to avoid making the error of saying that certain differences between the two works reveal how Spinoza's thought developed over time when in fact those differences really come from the style in which the two works are written, which effects the nature of their argumentation.
It is worth noting that the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus, which was published during Spinoza's lifetime, was a controversial defense of the theses found in his Ethics, which was only published posthumously. In other words, it's one thing to make an argument in a logical fashion and another thing altogether to defend an argument against anticipated criticism. The author says that it is impossible to compare the two texts without taking this into consideration.
More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Theologico-Politicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(book)
It seems to me that the author is suggesting that, because the two texts by Spinoza have quite different aims and methods (i.e., ne se situent pas sur le même terrain spéculatif), comparison of them must involve a critical examination which takes their specific genres into consideration. In particular, it is important to note whether differences between them are really due to the (rhetorical or logical) requirements of their respective arguments, or whether they reflect actual changes in Spinoza's thought.
That's a paraphrase of the meaning, so I did not try to include all of the nuances. But I think the main idea is that the author wants to proceed cautiously, in order to avoid making the error of saying that certain differences between the two works reveal how Spinoza's thought developed over time when in fact those differences really come from the style in which the two works are written, which effects the nature of their argumentation.
It is worth noting that the Tractatus Theologico-Politicus, which was published during Spinoza's lifetime, was a controversial defense of the theses found in his Ethics, which was only published posthumously. In other words, it's one thing to make an argument in a logical fashion and another thing altogether to defend an argument against anticipated criticism. The author says that it is impossible to compare the two texts without taking this into consideration.
More information:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tractatus_Theologico-Politicus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_(book)
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Francis Marche
10 hrs
|
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Thank you, Francis
|
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| agree |
MatthewLaSon
1 day 1 hr
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Thank you, Matthew
|
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| agree |
Sophie Cherel
1 day 22 hrs
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Thank you, Sophie
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank, you! You are my go-to guy for philosophy!"
+1
12 mins
by the needs and nature of the subject
It seems to me that "propos" can be translated by subject here and therefore you can combine it with the phrase that follows.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Good idea.
6 hrs
|
| neutral |
Francis Marche
: Not sure you may merge and reduce "propos" and "sujet" into one notion
15 hrs
|
1 hr
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requirements of the statement
It fits the context
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
mchd
: traduction mot à mot, sans réel sens avec le contexte qu'il suffit de lire
11 mins
|
+2
3 hrs
argumentational needs
*
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Note added at 3 heures (2014-10-01 14:14:05 GMT)
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Another quote:
In this passage, Spinoza suggests the idea that the principle of union, ... Spinoza's ***argumentation*** nevertheless proceeds elliptically, remaining implicit and ...
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 heures (2014-10-01 14:14:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Another quote:
In this passage, Spinoza suggests the idea that the principle of union, ... Spinoza's ***argumentation*** nevertheless proceeds elliptically, remaining implicit and ...
Example sentence:
Criminological writers were nevertheless interested in some characteristics of the criminal underworld, those that fit their own argumentational needs.
2 hrs
exigencies of expression
i.e. the requirements imposed by language in order to express a thought.
https://archive.org/stream/sythetica01lauruoft/sythetica01la...
'If at any time I should fall into language which seems to indicate
that a sentient subject receives "impressions" like soft clay, or mir
rors impressions as if it were a looking-glass, this will be due merely
to the exigencies of expression.'
http://archive.org/stream/classicalpapers00earlgoog/classica...
"The treatment of antistrophic verbal responsion by Dr J. H. H.
Schmidt {Griechische Metrik, § 27) was next examined. Dr
Schmidt, while denying to the Greek poets rhyme in the modern
sense (what have frequently been treated as rh)mies in classic Greek
being, from his point of view, rhetorical rather than poetical phe-
nomena, or even due to the exigencies of expression), emphasizes
the existence of what he terms Strophenreime (strophic rhymes). "
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2014-10-02 07:52:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To elucidate the wider ("parole") sense of "propos", according to Le Grand Robert:
"Paroles dites au sujet de qqn. ou de qqch., mots échangés, prononcés au cours d'une conversation. Par ext. Phrase, texte écrit. ➙ Discours, parole, phrase (supra cit. 15). Échange de propos. ➙ Conversation, entretien. Les propos d'un personnage de roman, d'une pièce de théâtre (→ Nombre, cit. 28). Vivacité dans les propos. De propos en propos (→ De fil en aiguille*, cit. 11). Répéter un propos inutile (→ Opportunité, cit. 2). Propos en l'air. ➙ Bruit. ...
" ... Ling. Ce qu'on dit de qqch. (appelé le thème). ➙ Prédicat, 1. thème."
https://archive.org/stream/sythetica01lauruoft/sythetica01la...
'If at any time I should fall into language which seems to indicate
that a sentient subject receives "impressions" like soft clay, or mir
rors impressions as if it were a looking-glass, this will be due merely
to the exigencies of expression.'
http://archive.org/stream/classicalpapers00earlgoog/classica...
"The treatment of antistrophic verbal responsion by Dr J. H. H.
Schmidt {Griechische Metrik, § 27) was next examined. Dr
Schmidt, while denying to the Greek poets rhyme in the modern
sense (what have frequently been treated as rh)mies in classic Greek
being, from his point of view, rhetorical rather than poetical phe-
nomena, or even due to the exigencies of expression), emphasizes
the existence of what he terms Strophenreime (strophic rhymes). "
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2014-10-02 07:52:21 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
To elucidate the wider ("parole") sense of "propos", according to Le Grand Robert:
"Paroles dites au sujet de qqn. ou de qqch., mots échangés, prononcés au cours d'une conversation. Par ext. Phrase, texte écrit. ➙ Discours, parole, phrase (supra cit. 15). Échange de propos. ➙ Conversation, entretien. Les propos d'un personnage de roman, d'une pièce de théâtre (→ Nombre, cit. 28). Vivacité dans les propos. De propos en propos (→ De fil en aiguille*, cit. 11). Répéter un propos inutile (→ Opportunité, cit. 2). Propos en l'air. ➙ Bruit. ...
" ... Ling. Ce qu'on dit de qqch. (appelé le thème). ➙ Prédicat, 1. thème."
Discussion
Paroles dites au sujet de qqn. ou de qqch., mots échangés, prononcés au cours d'une conversation. Par ext. Phrase, texte écrit. ➙ Discours, parole, phrase (supra cit. 15). Échange de propos. ➙ Conversation, entretien. Les propos d'un personnage de roman, d'une pièce de théâtre (→ Nombre, cit. 28). Vivacité dans les propos. De propos en propos (→ De fil en aiguille*, cit. 11). Répéter un propos inutile (→ Opportunité, cit. 2). Propos en l'air. ➙ Bruit. ...