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Glossary entry

Portuguese term or phrase:

XX é uma roça (idiom)

English translation:

is like a country town / countryside town

Added to glossary by Mario Freitas
Mar 2, 2020 20:20
4 yrs ago
36 viewers *
Portuguese term

roça

Portuguese to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature
I'm not sure of the exact definition of this word in context, as the dictionary mentions there's a meaning specific to Bahia, namely the outskirts of Salvador. Is that what is meant here? In dialogue, the character says: "Salvador é uma roça. É difícil citar alguém a quen não posso pedir, vez ou outra, um favorzinho." Thanks!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +5 is like a countryside town
5 ranch
4 hick-clique
3 +1 shanty town
4 farm land
4 Ruralised town
Change log

Mar 4, 2020 09:26: Mario Freitas Created KOG entry

Mar 4, 2020 09:26: Mario Freitas changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/799114">Mario Freitas's</a> old entry - "XX é uma roça (idiom)"" to ""is like a country town / countryside town""

Mar 4, 2020 13:59: airmailrpl changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Mario Freitas, Fausto Machado Tiemann, airmailrpl

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Discussion

Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@Lara It's far from me to insult you, I just didn't like the way you treated me as someone having poor English knowledge who did not understand what you meant, with your post to Bruno, even though I understood it very well, as did he.
So let's stop it right here and get on with work that is more important.
Lara Barnett Mar 4, 2020:
@ Katarina I am very happy for your advanced knowledge of Brazilian life. However, i simply asked a question because I have heard of "roca" being connected to the idea of a religious "temple". If this proves to you that I am a little inadequate in knowledge, then I am very happy for you. ps. I do not come onto this forum to dispute with, insult or to berate my fellow translators, if you prefer to do this and as such discredit every comment I make, (as you very often do anyway), then you obviously have no important work to do.

What is more, my post did not discuss the difference between a ranch and a farm, but simply the connotations that we associate with them in UK. If you know them already I am happy for you, but hopefully this will also help other translators who may use this Kudoz glossary in their future work!
airmailrpl Mar 4, 2020:
ranch with NO buildings.. >a ranch could, theoretically, not even have any buildings on it
My friend in Texas has a piece of land with cattle on it which he calls his "ranch" and there are NO buildings.
airmailrpl Mar 4, 2020:
Ranch-style house vs Ranch Ranch-style house:
Ranch (also known as American ranch, California ranch, rambler, or rancher) is a domestic architectural style originating in the United States. ... The house style fused modernist ideas and styles with notions of the American Western period of wide open spaces to create a very informal and casual living style.
Ranch-style house - Wikipedia

ranch
/ran(t)SH/
noun
1. a large farm, especially in the western US and Canada, where cattle or other animals are bred and raised.

it’s important to remember that all ranches are farms, but not all farms are ranches.

A ranch is a specific type of farm. Ranches usually carry cattle or sheep, and their primary focus is optimal care of the animals.
Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@ Lara I know the difference between farm and ranch, Lara... and I think Mario clearly pointed out what the problem is here... I started off being amused with your presumption of "roça" being about a ''special worship of the African religion''...:)). I believe I know more about Brazil than what you assume.
Mario Freitas Mar 4, 2020:
Maybe it's a UK thing? I learned English in the US, so to me a "ranch' is a cattle farm, usually a big one too. The term has no relation to any type of building whatsoever, and given the actual meaning of the word, a ranch could, theoretically, not even have any buildings on it, although most of them do have a nice big house built by the owner. Ranch owners are usually rich farmers and like to show-off that status.
Now, I have no idea what a ranch would be in the UK. This may be the root of the entire discussion.
Paulinho Fonseca Mar 4, 2020:
Let's fan the flames of knowledge https://www.land.com/buying/difference-between-farm-and-ranc...
Lara Barnett Mar 4, 2020:
@ Katarina - Farm Vs Ranch Basically, if you are used to using the English language, and you are aware of all its connotations and nuances, it would appear that "Farm" can easily be used in a pejorative sense, while using "Ranch" in the same way does not work. This is probably because there are a lot of funny uses for "farm", and many jokes are made about farms, giving this "farm life" idea a slight sense of tragi-comedy. On the other hand (probably just by an arbitrary chance) the word "ranch" is not really used in such connotations or in such jokes in our language - nothing to do with preference for one or the other term, but simply a case of cultural/social connotations and common usage.
Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@Lara at this point, I give up trying to communicate with you...
Lara Barnett Mar 4, 2020:
@ Katarina What is it exactly that you do not understand? A ranch always centres around a building, which is the focus of the area that we normally call "ranch", which is all I said. While, this should suggest, if you understand English properly, that a ranch could not realistically be likened to a town (or city or similar largely populated area), because in English to me it sounds odd culturally to say that - you are entitled to your own opinion should you think it is an excellent choice of word!
* I am sorry if you have problems understanding my native 52-year usage of my own language;
* And I am sorry if you find it difficult to understand that everybody has their own view point;
* And I am sorry also if you feel the need to speak on behalf of other translators who have a voice themselves should they wish to say something.
Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@All After all that, no one posted "like a country village"...
Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@ Lara & All but how does anyone understand what you posted to Bruno "a building, which is what a ranch is" ???
Lara Barnett Mar 4, 2020:
@ Mario I am aware it is nothing to do with farming, and "farm" can also be used in UK in a pejorative way. I see "farming land" here as conveying the spirit of rustic life, but I have read all the explanations given and understand its usage here.
Mario Freitas Mar 4, 2020:
@ All After one of the longest discussions of the year with this term, I think it deserves one mote Pro vote?
Mario Freitas Mar 4, 2020:
@ Lara As I explained below, your friend from Porto Seguro is considering the dictionary meaning of the word "roça" alone. He did not consider the expression "é uma roça" used in a large metropolitan area like Salvador. It has nothing to do with "farming" at all. It's pejorative and it's an idiom or slang sort of thing.
Lara Barnett Mar 4, 2020:
@ Katarina I do not understand your post, as I said, to define (or identify) a town as a small area or building like a ranch, does not make logical sense, that is all I said.
airmailrpl Mar 4, 2020:
a country town
What is a country town?
Definition of country town. : a town usually small and concerned primarily with serving the surrounding rural area.

Country Town | Definition of Country Town by Merriam-Websterwww.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › country town
Search for: What is a country town?
Katarina Peters Mar 4, 2020:
@ Lara and Bruno Sorry Lara, this is exactly what you posted to Bruno: "But you can't define a town as a building, which is what a ranch is." Meaning, a ranch is a building, according to you...
Lara Barnett Mar 3, 2020:
Bahian meaning I have a friend from Porto Seguro (here in UK), who has just confirmed that where he comes from they use this term to describe a farm - that was his English definition anyway.
I guess in England sometimes we could call something a "farm" in order to criticise the way it functions. If it was emphasized, for example "Salvador has turned out to be a bit of a farm..." this could possibly express the meaning in a conversational way, but rural/countryside associations generally all work here.
Lara Barnett Mar 3, 2020:
@ Bruno I did NOT say that a ranch was not a building. If you cannot understand what I have said you are not really in a position to berate it!!
Bruno OMG!!!
Mario Freitas Mar 3, 2020:
@ All If you look up "roça" in the dictionary, it will likely say it's a small area where you have a small crop. However, when you say "é uma roça", that is a regional expression, almost slang, used when you are in a big city but people behave as if they were in the countryside, in a small town. Salvador is one of the largest cities in Brazil. Stating it's "uma roça" is a way to put it down, saying that people there behave like hillbillies.
Katarina Peters Mar 3, 2020:
@ Lara a ranch is not a building (as you are saying to Bruno) ...a ranch is an area of land, including various structures.
Mario Freitas Mar 3, 2020:
@ Lara, I'm not sure about English, but in Portuguese, we use "rural" as opposed to "urban". So rural town would make no sense in PT. It's either in a rural area or in a town.
Also, regarding Shanty Town, it doesn't mean it's in the coutryside. It's more like a "favela".
Paulinho Fonseca Mar 2, 2020:
Lugar onde todos se conhecem O texto deixa claro que se trata de um lugar 'pequeno', onde todos se conhecem e prestam favores, não usaria "provincial" por ser ainda mais pejorativo ou depreciativo. Em alguns casos, usam o 'roça' para descrever determinadas cidades. 'A cidade X é uma roça', fazendo referência à infraestrutura, como ruas, etc.
Katarina Peters Mar 2, 2020:
@ Lara I don't think Candomblé has anything to do with this...
Lara Barnett Mar 2, 2020:
@ Asker Can you give more context to this word in the poem, or explain the meaning or subject of the poem. Is this about worship of the special African religion?
Thanks.

Proposed translations

+5
12 hrs
Selected

is like a countryside town

Sugestão
Peer comment(s):
agree Lara Barnett : "Rural town" flows better though. This sounds more logical.
4 hrs
Indeed, thank you, Lara.
agree Fausto Machado Tiemann
5 hrs
Obrigado, Fausto!
agree Bruno Dutra : Lara Barnett descordou de mim Mario, devo ficar blabo ?
6 hrs
Não, cala! Lara é nativa in English. Só que "ranch" não é um "building" de jeito nenhum. Mas acho que o pessoal anglófono não entendeu bem esse sentido de "roça" como gíria. Eu expliquei lá em cima.
agree Claudio Mazotti : As eternas pedras no caminho...
6 hrs
... e o Drummon era da roça, né? Obrigado, Cláudio!
agree airmailrpl : "is like a country town" sounds better
21 hrs
Absolutely, Robert. I thought of interior automatically as "countryside". Thinking in Portuguese :) Thank you.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you all for a lively discussion. I'm going to keep playing with this one to see if I can come up with something that has a bit more pejorative a slant. But for now this seems to be the closest, as it captures the idea of everyone knowing one another. Thanks Mario!"
49 mins

hick-clique

Usually, roça means some place away from the city, a more pejorative slang for countryside, farm or ranch.

However, it seems that in this particular case, in addition to this countryside meaning, the author wanted to add–giving that cities far from large centers have fewer people–the meaning of a place where everybody knows everybody, like an exclusive group of people, or, as I suggested, a clique.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 52 mins (2020-03-02 21:13:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Example sentence: "Salvador is a hick-clique. It's hard to name one person from whom I cannot, now and then, ask for a little favor."
Example sentence:

\

Reference:

http://urbanthesaurus.org/synonyms/hick-clique

Something went wrong...
+1
58 mins

shanty town

Salvador was a major centre for the African slave trade in the colonial period. Muslim African slaves in the city staged a widespread revolt there in 1835. Salvador still has one of the largest concentrations of black and mulatto populations in Brazil. Those groups have contributed many of the folkways, costumes, and distinctive foods for which the city is noted.
Example sentence:

The favelas have grown up higgledy-piggledy, with densely-packed dwellings, unpaved streets and open sewers. Houses cling precariously to the hillsides; a heavy rain can wash away the shallow foundations, burying homes and their occupants under mudslides.

Reference:

http://davidhmould.com/at-sea/2018/8/3/the-favelas-of-salvador-brazil

Peer comment(s):
agree Lara Barnett
15 hrs
Something went wrong...
53 mins

ranch

Roça is a popular name gived for rural areas composed by ranchs and farms. When someone are born and grown in a countryside here in brazil you say that he's a 'roçeiro' a guy who was born in a farm and grow on that enviroment, a guy constituted by a countryside culture.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 56 mins (2020-03-02 21:17:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

it is of course pejorative, Roça is the place where a bumpkin was born..

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2020-03-02 21:31:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

So when character says: "Salvador é uma roça. " and after "É difícil citar alguém a quen não posso pedir, vez ou outra, um favorzinho."

He's trying to say that Salvador it's a small place, where everybody knows each other (in other words, a place where the social nets are not complex) and so a place where you can get easily a favor from someone already known.
Peer comment(s):
agree Katarina Peters
21 mins
Thank you, Katarina.
neutral Lara Barnett : But you can't define a town as a building, which is what a ranch is.// In the UK we use the term ranch to describe a plot of land with a rural house and the sometimes other outhouses. I said in my opinion it does nto work to describe a town as a "ranch".
15 hrs
a ranch is a building!? o.m.g
disagree Claudio Mazotti : no way...
18 hrs
Something went wrong...
2 hrs

farm land

roça => farm land

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2020-03-02 23:02:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PROJETO DE INTERVENÇÃO: ROÇA COMUNITÁRIA ...ares.unasus.gov.br › acervo › handle › ARES
by ADD SILVA
O presente projeto define as diretrizes que nortearão o trabalho a ser desenvolvido no projeto de implementação da roça comunitária na aldeia Trevo do ...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Lara Barnett : Sorry,, this would not be my 1st choice, perhaps "farming land". How does it not make sense? This is legitimate adjectival usage eg. "...today FARMING LAND remains scarce & much in demand." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_King...
14 hrs
Salvador is a "farming land" doesn't make it..
Something went wrong...
19 hrs

Ruralised town

In English rural is ALWAYS associated with the countryside, and as this is for an English (or US) readership, that is what matters.

"RURAL
1. of, relating to, or characteristic of the country, country life, or country people; rustic:
2. living in the country: the rural population.
3. of or relating to agriculture: rural economy.


To use a verb form like shows how the town (Salvador) was not intended to be so way:

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 20 hrs (2020-03-03 16:44:37 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could also say "bucolic" or "rustic" (rustic to me may contain the pejorative touch required perhaps....!)

"Ruralize"
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of the country...
Synonyms: rural, bucolic, rustic, pastoral
https://www.thefreedictionary.com/ruralized
Example sentence:

"...the modern texture of a RURALISED TOWN ignorant of its past."

Reference:

https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/e/9780203752319/chapters/10.4324%2F9780203752319-12

Something went wrong...
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