| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Is it possible for an adult to learn a new language perfectly? Thread poster: Balasubramaniam L.
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Ruxi
German to Romanian
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"While most people agree that learning a language at any age is possible, they also concur that this applies only to writing skills in the language, spoken language is never learned properly beyond puberty, and there seems to be no dissenting view on this. But the proficiency acquired when a language is learned as an adult is never comparable to what would have been possible if the same language had been learned in early childhood."
Dear Balasubramaniam, I think that is not true. I ... See more "While most people agree that learning a language at any age is possible, they also concur that this applies only to writing skills in the language, spoken language is never learned properly beyond puberty, and there seems to be no dissenting view on this. But the proficiency acquired when a language is learned as an adult is never comparable to what would have been possible if the same language had been learned in early childhood."
Dear Balasubramaniam, I think that is not true. I would say things are like that in reality: 0- schoolage (6 or 7) a child can only learn the spoken language, in school writing skills (if by that you mean grammar and vocabular) are increasing fast: in adult age people tend to learn faster spoken language, but writing skills are harder to get.
Now this picture depends on a lot of aspects:
1. where and who teaches the child a language ( native persons, or not), the level of language (literar language or dialect and the language corectness). In family and kindergarden the language of the the persons can be of a low level (either persons with not much education, or the other children of the same age who speak more or less correct). Also in kindergarden or at home, a child can learn a foreign language from a teacher or a nanny, who can also be native or not and have a certain level of skills.
2. for adults there is another aspect too: wether they learn the language alone, or with a teacher, if they talk it daily, if they read and work with it or not.
This is why I said that many adults learn often first the spoken language (living in a foreign country, marrying a foreign person aso), but written skills are a problem, cause they don't go to school anymore. If they have a teacher, or attend a certain form of education, they may learn also very well and rapid the written language and the grammar.
3. a language, including the native one(!) can be also forgotten if not used frequently (contacts with native speakers, working with it, reading, TV aso).
4. again and again, the native talent and capacity for languages and musical hearing are very important in learning any language.
I will give you my example to understand it better:
I was exposed with 5 to German and learned at that age the first elements of spoken language, with a native family. Starting school I got another native person who continued my education, by talking only in German and also daily classes with grammar. She also teached me to read books and to go to a public library. From that moment I started to read german books with love and speed and never stoped doing it. I was also exposed to some German community in vacations, but they used a dialect and I alsmost learned it too. Then I stoped using this language in a spoken form till a few years ago and only continued to read. I forgot some of the written skills. Now I live in the very country and speak it daily at home and read a lot. But: as I do not work yet here and have not much written contacts, I have some (written)grammar problems, not to say that it lately changed.
Still people here told me that I can very well write in my CV German as a second native language (which I was affraid to do though).
I learned English at school with no-native teachers, used it at my work a lot, but only read a few books. The result is I don't have a wide literature vocabulary, but write it more or less correct.
Finally I started to learn two languages after the age of 30, the last one at almost 40 years. French I never used, so I forgot a lot. With Italian there is another problem:
I learned it alone, only with books. I talk it often with my new family and friends (native speakers). I am in the position of speaking it better than writing it and I try to improve it.
I use on a regular basis 3 foreign languages and my native too.
Interesting enough I started to have problems with my native language as grammar has changed last years too and the vocabulary is also dynamic.
I have a talent and passion for foreign languages and a good musical hear.
So there is no general rule and there are so many factors. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Balasubramaniam L. 
India
Local time: 12:21
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER
To add to the complexity of the issue, here are some more twists:
- Girls it seems are better at learning languages than boys. Should be true, for there are more women members in proz.com than men members, according to a recent poll!
- Twins, triplets and quadraplets, generally have very poor language skills. The reasonfor this according to the book in which I read this is that twins, etc., have mental processes so similar to each other that if they play together, they ... See more To add to the complexity of the issue, here are some more twists:
- Girls it seems are better at learning languages than boys. Should be true, for there are more women members in proz.com than men members, according to a recent poll!
- Twins, triplets and quadraplets, generally have very poor language skills. The reasonfor this according to the book in which I read this is that twins, etc., have mental processes so similar to each other that if they play together, they can't teach each other anything new, including language skills. This book suggests that the corrective measure to be adopted in the case of twins is to put them in separate play groups or schools so that they are exposed to different experiences, speech events and vocabularies.
- Children from lower middle-class families acquire an inferior command of language when compared to children of comparable intelligence of middle-income families. The reason being parental attitudes, low education-levels of parents, greater control over the thinking of children by the community, which kills curiosity, etc.
So this is a very complex issue, and it would be hazardous to make any generalizations. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What kind of summary is this? | Nov 7, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
First, there seems to be agreement that language learning is the domain of children, rather than adults, and the younger you are, the better you are in this activity.
Second, there is disagreement regarding the extent of the language learning phase in human beings.
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While most people agree that learning a language at any age is possible, they also concur that this applies only to writing skills in the language, spoken language is never learned properly beyond puberty, and there seems to be no dissenting view on this. But the proficiency acquired when a language is learned as an adult is never comparable to what would have been possible if the same language had been learned in early childhood.
So that in short is the summary of the discussion so far.
Well, when summarizing a discussion, it is always nice to point out only one's favoured view and forgetting the rest.
Just for the books: I disagree. As I pointed out before, I think it is a question of necessity and the effort put into it. Most people stop at the point where they can communicate in a language, no longer bothering to hone their skills. But I am sure more is possible and enough people have pointed this out in this thread.
So if you are really interested in this discussion, I'd recommend you read the whole story and form your own opinion.
| | | | transparx
United States
Local time: 02:51
English to Italian
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| I must have missed this post! | Dec 17, 2006 |
Balasubramaniam wrote:
- Twins, triplets and quadraplets, generally have very poor language skills. The reasonfor this according to the book in which I read this is that twins, etc., have mental processes so similar to each other that if they play together, they can't teach each other anything new, including language skills. This book suggests that the corrective measure to be adopted in the case of twins is to put them in separate play groups or schools so that they are exposed to different experiences, speech events and vocabularies.
Well, I have an identical twin brother. We played together when we were children, went to the same schools -including the same university- and then both moved to the US --well past the so-called critical age. Here we both got our Ph.D.'s from the same university! Now I teach linguistics and he philosophy, and most of our students are native speakers of English.
Ah yes, and he is also a published author --in English!
[Edited at 2006-12-17 08:32]
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I believe an adult can if he/she is MOTIVATED and really WANTS TO COMMUNICATE in another language. The latest British Council/Cambridge ESOL reports state this very clearly.
Robert.
| | | | | it is possible :) | Apr 30, 2007 |
Fascinating thread, I must say. I'm truly delighted to have discovered this site. It never ceases to amaze me. I'm not a linguist, or have any professional background in linguistics, but I think it's quite pointless to discuss whether it is possible or not for a non-native to speak L2 perfectly? 'Perfectly' is too fuzzy of a word. What most people mean by it, though, is being able to speak the language more or less like an educated native speaker, and THAT I believe IS possible.
| | | | Maxi Inge
Local time: 02:51
German to English
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| experience, and alternate thinking | May 1, 2007 |
This thread first caught my attention through the words "Is it possible for an adult to...." usually that sentence finishes with "learn to play a musical instrument", at which point all the weaknesses and failings of adults are pointed out: the shriveling up brain cells (we use what, 30%, 50%, 60%), and a host of physical failings. If you believe you can't, you probably won't be able to.
I'm over 50, and I am learning my 6th language and occasionally dabble in the 7th. I learn fas... See more This thread first caught my attention through the words "Is it possible for an adult to...." usually that sentence finishes with "learn to play a musical instrument", at which point all the weaknesses and failings of adults are pointed out: the shriveling up brain cells (we use what, 30%, 50%, 60%), and a host of physical failings. If you believe you can't, you probably won't be able to.
I'm over 50, and I am learning my 6th language and occasionally dabble in the 7th. I learn faster and easier than I did when I studied Russian at age 18, or French at age12. It is in the pronunciation of languages, in particular, that I derive an almost aesthetic pleasure. At the same time I have plunged seriously into music, which is something I never studied formally: not so much as a single lesson as a child, or the knowledge of the name of a note. Some ideas come up from both worlds.
Somebody has mentioned that "the adult's abstract mode of thinking intefered with natural language learning process." Well heck, if that's what we're doing, why not "do" differently? I'm putting that out as a not so simplistic thought. One of the major hurdles that music teachers of adult students face is this tendency to overthink everything, while the kids "just do". I've just taken part in a fascinating musical exercise which would take too long to explain, and adapted it as a language learning activity in a one on one session with a young student, who described it as "hard hitting". I could go back and forth all night between music and language.
Pronunciation and hearing: I think that the "musical ear" that somebody mentioned is indeed part of it. Musical ears exist, and they are also trained and developed. The amount of hearing acuity of the foetus in the womb is only part of it: discernment is important. And we adults have the unfortunate tendency to filter out what we hear, and replace it with the familiar: sort of an anti-discernment habit. I don't do it anymore with language, but I am catching myself "hearing" two notes that are 7 1/2 tones apart as being an octave apart, because I "want" that second note to sound as I envision it, because then it would be in tune - so I hear what is not there. The same is true of the person hearing a "Spanish R" when he should be hearing a "French R" or an "American R". Those R's don't even resemble each other! The only similarity is that they share a written symbol that looks like an unfinished B when capitalized.
The weakness in these statistics and scientific studies of who can do what, and who can't, is that a lot of things are taken for granted. HOW do adults typically learn languages? Can they approach them differently? Are we capable of shifting our paradigms and modes of perception entirely? Can we deliberately become like the toddler who savours the sensation of his tongue clicking against his two teeth while he says "dadada", and intensely plays with modulation of voice and rhythm? Can we allow the sounds of foreign words to wash over us without consideration of meaning, and allow the meaning to come, and without analyzing, translating, "thinking" about it? Can we find a pre-stage to grammar, picking up patterns without thought, and adding the rules later in a more formal stage, so that syntax has a greater chance of becoming second nature? Can we change how we perceive and organize our reality in the process of learning language (or music)?
I'm too busy actually doing it on both counts to come up with a written analysis or turn this into anything more concrete. All I know so far is that in the last 3 years I have begun learning faster and more effectively on two fronts, than I ever did some 30 years ago - and it has to do with approach. I'm still ironing out the details. ▲ Collapse
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