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被拒的试译稿
Thread poster: Alan Wang
wherestip
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ego Jan 31, 2010

Bin Tiede wrote:

wherestip wrote:
有些东西是不能强求的. 老实做人的谦虚态度就是其中之一. You either have it or you don't.

这个不仅和个性有关,而且也受人生阅历的影响。


是的. 以我个人浅见, 这个论坛里多次发生的口角冲突都和涉事人缺乏足够的虚心态度有关. 政治观点还是次要的.

不过我话题又扯远了


 
wonita (X)
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Rules Jan 31, 2010

Rule Nr. 1: I am always right.
Rule Nr. 2: Please consult Rule Nr.1 when I am wrong.


wherestip wrote:

Bin Tiede wrote:

wherestip wrote:
有些东西是不能强求的. 老实做人的谦虚态度就是其中之一. You either have it or you don't.

这个不仅和个性有关,而且也受人生阅历的影响。


是的. 以我个人浅见, 这个论坛里多次发生的口角冲突都和涉事人缺乏足够的虚心态度有关. 政治观点还是次要的.

不过我话题又扯远了


 
wonita (X)
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干什么都得有感觉 Jan 31, 2010

lbone wrote:
我读书时复印东西总去学校图书馆里复印,因为图书馆管复印的那个人印出来的东西就是比别人复印出来的好,这不是复印机的区别,这个人会针对不同稿件采用不同灰度、篇幅、放在不同的位置上进行复制,在某些情况下有时还会垫上某种颜色的纸之类的东西。一个一般人看不出什么区别的复印工作,他就能做得明显比别人要好。这是使用技能的能力和sense上的区别。

我上大学那会儿有一阵子流行织围巾。有时下午没课,天气又好,众姊妹就凑在一起织,犹如西里西亚的纺织女工。有几个织起来怎么看怎么舒服,又快又利索,而且织的时候连纤子都不用看;还有的织得就很别扭,一针一针费劲地戳。

不过人家是给男朋友织围巾,再笨也是一片心意。


 
ysun
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同意 Jan 31, 2010

wherestip wrote:

是的. 以我个人浅见, 这个论坛里多次发生的口角冲突都和涉事人缺乏足够的虚心态度有关. 政治观点还是次要的.


 
ysun
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法乎其上 Jan 31, 2010

dumont -- wrote:

仔细研究了你译的该句,的确很专业。
本来对这个问题心里还真有点郁闷,现在觉得的确不冤。觉得还是看到自己的差距好,这样对自己才有较为正确的认识。

谢谢你的评论。我不敢说我的水平就很高。我做专利中译英时,校稿者(通常是英语为母语者)也会从修辞、语法等角度挑出一些毛病,但涉及专业技术内容时,他们就很少修改。另外,超出我专业范围的翻译项目,我一般都不接。如果我与擅长那些翻译项目的同仁去竞争,那就等于以我的下马去对别人的中马或上马。

说句公道话,以你的背景,你能译到这种程度已经很不错了。我相信你在翻译时参阅了相关技术的英文专利,所以不少技术名词、术语还是译对了(但仍有译错的)。当然,你的译稿离这家客户的要求也许还有一定距离。别的翻译社从价格等因素全面考虑,也许还能接受你的译稿。某些翻译社让我审核的一些中译英专利确实还不如你所译的。你之所以感到郁闷可能就是因为你觉得还有不少人水平比你低却也照样在那里混。但是,我们总应该向高标准看齐。法乎其上,才能得乎其中。

[Edited at 2010-01-31 23:50 GMT]


 
nigerose
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避免“叠层膜”指代不清的问题 Feb 1, 2010

ysun wrote:


谢谢你的评论。为了讨论方便,姑且用A、B和C分别代表实施例1和2中所提到的三种叠层膜:
A-本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜
B-多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜
C-本发明改性的聚合物叠层膜”

不错,实施例1中确实提到两种叠层膜:“本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜”(A)和 “多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜”(B)。但请注意,B前面没有“本发明”这一限定词,所以不属于本发明,而是别人的技术(先前技术)。可是,实施例1中所测试和使用的是“上面制得的本发明叠层膜”。可见,那是A而不是B。

相比之下,实施例2所测试和使用的是“本发明改性的聚合物叠层膜”(C)。所谓实施例2“同实施例1”,并不是说它们完全相同,而是说实施例2与实施例1是 “substantially the same”。两者的不同之处在于用C取代了A。我使用 substantially 只是出于逻辑上的需要。如果别人不用,那只是一种 preference,谈不上谁对谁错,更不能以 Google 搜索的结果多少来决定是否需要。

另外,专利中的 EXAMPLES 部分通常是描述发明人为实施其发明而曾经作过的各种实验。因此,我所见到的英文专利在 EXAMPLES 部分(对应于此中文专利的“实施例”部分),通常都是用过去时态,而在描述 EMBODIMENTS 的部分(对应于此中文专利的“具体实施方案”部分),则用现在时态。如果别人在 EXAMPLES 部分使用现代时态,我也会表示尊重。

翻译没有标准答案。在正确理解原文的基础上,完全可以有大同小异的各种表达。


Example 2如下翻译可以避免“叠层膜”指代不清的问题
This example is the same as Example 1 except that the laminated film used is the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention prepared according to the above-described method。
这里两个is都用现在时态,这是对example自身的描述。但对example中的具体实验操作的描述,常用过去时态,当然也可用现在时态,似乎没有明确的规定。

[修改时间: 2010-02-01 01:13 GMT]


 
Alan Wang
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truth vs modesty Feb 1, 2010

I am sorry, but why is it that some people like to think everything is about them and about what they have said?
Is it because they are being modest?
I am not an advocate of modesty, but, I am a fan of truth, which means calling yellow when seeing the yellow color and calling seven when seeing 7 and say something is better when I really feel it is better.
People quite often do not agree on things which may m
... See more
I am sorry, but why is it that some people like to think everything is about them and about what they have said?
Is it because they are being modest?
I am not an advocate of modesty, but, I am a fan of truth, which means calling yellow when seeing the yellow color and calling seven when seeing 7 and say something is better when I really feel it is better.
People quite often do not agree on things which may mean they see different truths, but they do agree sometimes or a lot and that may have little to do with any of them being modest. On the other hand, some people are more willing to see truth and some are not so willing for whatever reasons.
wherestip wrote:

Having the right attitude is one of the things some of us have been dwelling on in this forum since God knows when. I'm glad to see that it's beginning to somewhat sink in.

http://www.proz.com/post/1089740#1089740

wherestip wrote:

有些东西是不能强求的. 老实做人的谦虚态度就是其中之一. You either have it or you don't.




[Edited at 2010-01-31 17:26 GMT]


[修改时间: 2010-02-01 04:15 GMT]
Collapse


 
Alan Wang
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量力而行 Feb 1, 2010

谢谢鼓励。
你说的田忌赛马比喻也很有意思,的确要量力而行。

ysun wrote:

dumont -- wrote:

仔细研究了你译的该句,的确很专业。
本来对这个问题心里还真有点郁闷,现在觉得的确不冤。觉得还是看到自己的差距好,这样对自己才有较为正确的认识。

谢谢你的评论。我不敢说我的水平就很高。我做专利中译英时,校稿者(通常是英语为母语者)也会从修辞、语法等角度挑出一些毛病,但涉及专业技术内容时,他们就很少修改。另外,超出我专业范围的翻译项目,我一般都不接。如果我与擅长那些翻译项目的同仁去竞争,那就等于以我的下马去对别人的中马或上马。

说句公道话,以你的背景,你能译到这种程度已经很不错了。我相信你在翻译时参阅了相关技术的英文专利,所以不少技术名词、术语还是译对了(但仍有译错的)。当然,你的译稿离这家客户的要求也许还有一定距离。别的翻译社从价格等因素全面考虑,也许还能接受你的译稿。某些翻译社让我审核的一些中译英专利确实还不如你所译的。你之所以感到郁闷可能就是因为你觉得还有不少人水平比你低却也照样在那里混。但是,我们总应该向高标准看齐。法乎其上,才能得乎其中。

[Edited at 2010-01-31 23:50 GMT]


 
wherestip
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Never disappoints Feb 1, 2010

dumont -- wrote:

I am sorry, but why is it that some people like to think everything is about them and about what they have said?
Is it because they are being modest?


dumont,

I didn't expect you to know how to take a compliment; and needless to say you didn't disappoint.

Nevertheless, I'm still glad that you're finally beginning to realize how you really measure up, after Yueyin was nice enough to spoonfeed you with some friendly dosages of reality.


[Edited at 2010-02-01 20:47 GMT]


 
ysun
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关于“叠层膜”指代不清的问题 Feb 1, 2010

nigerose wrote:

Example 2如下翻译可以避免“叠层膜”指代不清的问题
This example is the same as Example 1 except that the laminated film used is the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention prepared according to the above-described method。
这里两个is都用现在时态,这是对example自身的描述。但对example中的具体实验操作的描述,常用过去时态,当然也可用现在时态,似乎没有明确的规定。

[修改时间: 2010-02-01 01:13 GMT]

其实,并不存在“叠层膜”指代不清的问题,其理由我昨天已经讲过。当然,你那样改也是可以的。不过,还可以改得更明确些,因为加一个字也是加,加两个字也是加。例如:
Example 2
This example was substantially the same as Example 1 except that the laminated polytrimethylene terephthalate film was substituted by the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention prepared according to the above-described method.

话说回来,翻译没有在原文基础上加以改善的义务。

另请参考:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951639/description.html
EXAMPLE 2
This example was substantially the same as example 1 except di-n-nonylamine was substituted for the Armeen 18D.


 
nigerose
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不容易理解 Feb 1, 2010

ysun wrote:

nigerose wrote:

Example 2如下翻译可以避免“叠层膜”指代不清的问题
This example is the same as Example 1 except that the laminated film used is the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention prepared according to the above-described method。
这里两个is都用现在时态,这是对example自身的描述。但对example中的具体实验操作的描述,常用过去时态,当然也可用现在时态,似乎没有明确的规定。

[修改时间: 2010-02-01 01:13 GMT]

其实,并不存在“叠层膜”指代不清的问题,其理由我昨天已经讲过。当然,你那样改也是可以的。不过,还可以改得更明确些,因为加一个字也是加,加两个字也是加。例如:
Example 2
This example was substantially the same as Example 1 except that the laminated polytrimethylene terephthalate film was substituted by the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention prepared according to the above-described method.

话说回来,翻译没有在原文基础上加以改善的义务。

另请参考:
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/3951639/description.html
EXAMPLE 2
This example was substantially the same as example 1 except di-n-nonylamine was substituted for the Armeen 18D.



“the laminated polytrimethylene terephthalate film ”和“the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention"是什么关系?
估计应该都是本发明的叠层膜,差别在于后者是modified。当然从短短的测试稿是不容易理解到的。

"翻译没有在原文基础上加以改善的义务。"
我相信我做的一些中译英翻译,英文译文比中文原文还要好,不是我水平高,是中文原稿实在差。当然我能理解原稿要表达的意思。


 
Alan Wang
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thanks Feb 1, 2010

wherestip:
You know I am kidding. I love nothing better than a compliment, even though i am not sure deserving it. Thank you

wherestip wrote:

I didn't expect you to know how to take a compliment; and I have to say you didn't fail my expectation.

Regardless, I'm still glad that you finally began to realize how you really measure up after Yueyin spoonfed you some facts.


[Edited at 2010-02-01 05:25 GMT]


 
ysun
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很容易理解 Feb 1, 2010

nigerose wrote:

不容易理解
“the laminated polytrimethylene terephthalate film ”和“the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention"是什么关系?
估计应该都是本发明的叠层膜,差别在于后者是modified。当然从短短的测试稿是不容易理解到的。

"翻译没有在原文基础上加以改善的义务。"
我相信我做的一些中译英翻译,英文译文比中文原文还要好,不是我水平高,是中文原稿实在差。当然我能理解原稿要表达的意思。

没错,“the laminated polytrimethylene terephthalate film ” (A)和“the modified laminated polymer film of the present invention" (C)都是本发明的叠层膜。A是未改性的,C是改性的;实施例1测A的性能,实施例2测C的性能。虽然实施例1也提到了B(多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜),但B不是本发明的叠层膜。所以,实施例1所说的“用上述方法测定上面制得的本发明叠层膜...”,肯定不是指B。因此,实施例2不可能是用C去代替B,而只能是代替A。原文虽然不像许多英文专利那样为了严格而不厌其详,但若是仔细琢磨还是能够理解的。

你翻译的英文译文比中文原文还要好,那固然很好。确实,不少中文专利中某些句子写得很差,如果按字面照搬,译文也会难以理解。但是,有时中文原稿费解,并不一定是原稿的问题,而可能是我们没有理解。所以,最好还是慎重一些为好。

[Edited at 2010-02-02 01:42 GMT]


 
nigerose
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理解 Feb 2, 2010

ysun wrote:

确实,不少中文专利中某些句子写得很差,如果按字面照搬,译文也会难以理解。但是,有时中文原稿费解,并不一定是原稿的问题,而可能是我们没有理解。所以,最好还是慎重一些为好。


哪些地方是原文写的差,哪些地方是自己不太理解,还是能区分的。


 
ysun
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理解原文确实是关键 Feb 3, 2010

Yulian Wang wrote:

关键是理解原文(尤其是专业内涵)

…这项目专业性很强,如果没有相关研究经验和方向背景,单靠字面理解很容易出现偏差的。

理解原文确实是关键。翻译的第一步就是理解原文。如果原文理解错了,那就从根本上错了。这篇测试稿只是某专利的一小部分。受此限制,某些短语的意思似乎含混不清,但只要仔细琢磨还是可以理解的。例如实施例1中的“本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜”、“多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜”以及“上面制得的本发明叠层膜”之间到底是什么关系,我们无法根据整篇专利的上下文来判断。但是,从逻辑上分析即可断定,此处“上面制得的本发明叠层膜”肯定是指“本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜”。因为实施例1 的目的就是说明“本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜”性能优于“多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜”。因此,所测试的“上面制得的本发明叠层膜”只能是“本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜”。否则,这种测试对上述性能对比就毫无意义。那么,我们在翻译时有没有必要澄清这一点呢?没有必要,我们只要按照字面直译即可。此专利的上文必然已经明确说明“上面制得的本发明叠层膜”是什么东西。如果应试者加以明确,很可能会被判卷者认为是不必要的添加而扣分。也许有人会问,为什么你敢肯定实施例1 所测试的不是“多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜”?很简单,它不属于“本发明叠层膜”之列。专利中反复出现的“本发明的”限定词并不是作者无缘无故地加的。

实施例1
本实施例说明本发明聚对苯二甲酸丙二醇酯薄膜复合成的叠层膜的抗水汽渗透性、挠性和翘曲度优于多层聚对苯二甲酸乙二醇酯薄膜复合形成的叠层膜,抗水汽渗透性与TPT®背板基本相当,挠性和翘曲度优于TPT®背板。
用上述方法测定上面制得的本发明叠层膜的水蒸气透过率、弯曲模量和翘曲度,结果分别为1.3 g/m2/day、1553 MPa和2.7厘米。


 
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被拒的试译稿






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