| Stron w wątku: < [1 2 3] > | English Native Speaker Autor wątku: Kim Metzger
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Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| If Native Language = Mother Tounge, then that's an inadequate indicator of competence... | Jan 5, 2007 |
... you see, for example, even though my mouther tounge is Turkish, I probably have more competence in "Bankese", i.e., World Bank written language in English, than a very large number of translators who are native speakers of English but have not had exposure to Bankese.
Let me make two concrete points.
1- English language is different from many other languages in that there is a huge, huge English-speaking auidence around the world who are not, repeat, not native spe... See more ... you see, for example, even though my mouther tounge is Turkish, I probably have more competence in "Bankese", i.e., World Bank written language in English, than a very large number of translators who are native speakers of English but have not had exposure to Bankese.
Let me make two concrete points.
1- English language is different from many other languages in that there is a huge, huge English-speaking auidence around the world who are not, repeat, not native speakers of English.
2- Native speaking quality is absolutely important only where it is absolutely important, not in all instances. If you are talking about advertisement copy for addressing British consumers, you'd better make sure you get (a) British person(s) working for you -- with other qualifications as required, of course. If the subject materials are World Bank documents, however, native speaking quality is not the biggest issue at all.
3- In general, a key issue in terms of assuring that a particular translation assignment would be succesfuly completed is to have a person with proven record in that language pair and in that area of subject matter (or, if that's not available, then, related area). (And, Anna, a book translated and published, for example, is a pretty solid record.) If you need a piece of translated text for submission to a British court, you'd better find someone who has been translating those texts for the past several years without any significant problems. And when you find that person, that person's mother tounge may or may not be English.
So, what is it really that we are discussing here?
And I'm still baffled by the efforts on the part of some of the native English speakers to bar "the non-natives" from even answering Kudoz questions at all! I don't understand that at all.
It is time to put the native speaker thing in proper perspective.
I also think that vouching for a person's native speaking ability is really not a competence of proz.zom. The basic competence of proz.com, as far as I can see, is to provide a global communications infrastructure.
In fact it would appear to me that vouching for a person's native speaking ability is not really compatible with the Mission Statement of proz.com.
It is time to focus on reducing risks and I think verification of identity could be the biggest help in that respect - one with verified identity is not going to mislead any party about his or her competences.
Closing remark for my post: At the end of the day, native speaker attribute is a matter between client and translator / agency; it should not be a factor in relations between the translators. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| I should add that... | Jan 6, 2007 |
.. the above post of mine was largely inspired by the post immediately preceding it, i.e. the one by Michele Fauble -- I mean especially the points 1-2-3 that he has made there.
| | | | Kim Metzger 
Meksyk
Local time: 11:04
niemiecki > angielski
NOWY TEMAT | The topic of this thread | Jan 6, 2007 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
I'd simply like to know if some of our members (Dutch, German, French, etc.) who declare English as their native language would not do so if other options were available.... Are some members now choosing English as a native language because they don't have the option of selecting near-native proficiency, for example?
I'd like to steer this thread back on course. I did not start this thread to argue that translators must only translate into their native languages. That topic has been discussed many times before.
I am honestly trying to understand why some members who grew up speaking Dutch, for example, are now declaring themselves as native speakers of English or French, etc. I believe they are doing so because they are confusing "native speaker" with "bilingual speaker." I also think ProZ.com needs to do something ASAP to clarify and define the term "native speaker."
What is the native speaker icon all about? As I understand it, it's for indicating the language(s) you grew up SPEAKING. It doesn't say much about your writing/translating proficiency. Basically, I think it's to let potential clients know whether you're German, French, English, Russian, Chinese, etc. Some people don't fit neatly into the nationality categories; they actually have more than one native language. They are bilingual or multilingual – not because they learned a second language later on in life but because they grew up speaking two or more languages.
Wikipedia:
Multilingual speakers have acquired and maintained at least one language during childhood, the so-called first language (L1). First languages (sometimes also referred to as mother tongue) are acquired without formal education, by mechanisms heavily disputed. Children acquiring two first languages since birth are called simultaneous bilinguals. Even in the case of simultaneous bilinguals one language usually dominates over the other. This kind of bilingualism is most likely to occur when a child is raised by bilingual parents in a predominantly monolingual environment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual
So if a person selects two native languages, this should generally mean the person is bilingual from birth. But it is apparent that many of our members are selecting a second native language when what they would probably prefer to select is one native language and bilingual status in the sense of a person who acquired native-speaker proficiency later in life.
Wikipedia: A multilingual person, in the broadest definition, is anyone who can communicate in more than one language, be it active (through speaking and writing) or passive (through listening and reading).
[Edited at 2007-01-06 19:54]
| | | | Williamson
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 18:04
flamandzki > angielski
+ ...
| Preferred language level of the target language. | Jan 6, 2007 |
Job postings mention "preferred native language". If you bid on a job and you indicated that your native language is not that preferred native language, you can not bid, even if you have attained level C2. You will get "You do not meet all the qualifications"...
It would be better to be able to indicate "native language"+"language proficiency" and add a indication of "language proficiency in your other languages".
And wouldn't it be better that the bidding system had a "preferred l... See more Job postings mention "preferred native language". If you bid on a job and you indicated that your native language is not that preferred native language, you can not bid, even if you have attained level C2. You will get "You do not meet all the qualifications"...
It would be better to be able to indicate "native language"+"language proficiency" and add a indication of "language proficiency in your other languages".
And wouldn't it be better that the bidding system had a "preferred language level of target language" instead of "preferred native"?
Once you indicated your native language, it can not be changed.
[Edited at 2007-01-06 19:42] ▲ Collapse
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Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| What is the mission of Proz.com? | Jan 6, 2007 |
Kim Metzger wrote:
I did not start this thread to argue that translators must only translate into their native languages.
But the post by Williamson says that's the underlying issue in all this.
At any rate, the whole thing goes all the way up (or down, if you like, deep down) to Mission of Proz.com, as follows, for example:
Kim Metzger wrote:
"... I also think ProZ.com needs to do something ASAP to clarify and define the term "native speaker."
Kim, proz.com, as far as I know, does not have organs with competence to define and declare what "native speaker" or "bilingual speaker" is. Proz.com should stay out of that kind of stuff.
Proz.com is a web site operator; a provider of communication infrastructure / platform services.
Proz.com is not an occupational organization incorporating the requisite political processes to elect competent occupational organs. So proz.com can't elect those organs. And only those organs can make the kind of declarations you are talking about.
However, there is an expression on the web site that keeps catching my attention now and then and I haven't gotten around to explore it: the cooperative. If this is a real life cooperative of translators, then it means it has elected bodies including a first degree decision making organ. Then it could be, repeat, COULD be, a different story.
Other than that, proz.com cannot make any political or scientific decisions; it can only provide algorithmic facilities like the CLTP concept I proposed in some other thread -- Computed Language of Top Proficiency, where the operative word in the context of "algorithmic facilities" is the word "computed". The "givens", the inputs to those algrotihms would of course come from the users / members and they'd be providing that *for their own account and risk*.
Maybe proz.com outght to provide for outsourcers to define their own criteria as to who can bid.
What is the Mission of proz.com?
To decide who can bid?
Or to provide web platform for translators and outsourcers to interact on a global scale?
What is the Mission of proz.com?
[Edited at 2007-01-06 21:09]
[Edited at 2007-01-06 21:31]
| | | | Williamson
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 18:04
flamandzki > angielski
+ ...
| The bidding system, software packages and native language... | Jan 7, 2007 |
Although I added MsOffice as one of the tools I can support, I did not choose it from the available list of software, because the software package is not available on the drop-down menu.
Result: "You do not meet the criteria for this job".
Use of MsWord was one of the criteria.
On the one hand, not offering sufficient choice to fill out software packages you can support while linking the use of these packages to the bidding system, isn't that a contradiction? ... See more Although I added MsOffice as one of the tools I can support, I did not choose it from the available list of software, because the software package is not available on the drop-down menu.
Result: "You do not meet the criteria for this job".
Use of MsWord was one of the criteria.
On the one hand, not offering sufficient choice to fill out software packages you can support while linking the use of these packages to the bidding system, isn't that a contradiction?
If you enter MsOffice, I goes without saying that you can use MsWord.
Usually that is the first program of this software-suite people open.
----
The same is true for "native language" (which is not an indicator of linguistic skills).
I did not enter two "native languages", but I can understand that this system induces people, who master the target- language enter two languages. It gives them an opportunity to bid.
[Edited at 2007-01-07 16:12] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| Little bito decision analysis here - a simple question which may or may not be simple to answer: | Jan 7, 2007 |
What impact would each of the two alternative courses of action defined below have on the number of proz.com members?
a) Proz.com would continue to *guarantee* accuracy of translator's claim about native language(s).
b) Proz.com would stop offering that guarantee and make it entirely translator's responsibility to judge what native speaker means and specify his /her attributes accordingly.
Let me try to answer my own question:
My assessment is ... See more What impact would each of the two alternative courses of action defined below have on the number of proz.com members?
a) Proz.com would continue to *guarantee* accuracy of translator's claim about native language(s).
b) Proz.com would stop offering that guarantee and make it entirely translator's responsibility to judge what native speaker means and specify his /her attributes accordingly.
Let me try to answer my own question:
My assessment is that there is a misconception on the part of clients about significance of native language in connection with translation competence. Clients should first look for "competence in translating from language x to language y in field of work z". "Native speaker of language y" attribute should / could only be a secondary or auxiliary criterion.
Clients, I guess, do look for native speaker attribute, howeer, obviosuly not for political reasons or any thing of that sort but because what they are really looking for is proficiency, or competence. And some of the translators, knowing that, and feeling that they are proficient in the relevant language, go ahead and declare native speaker attribute.
Now; proz.com cannot define what native language is.
But proz.com can, indeed, effect scientifically accurate surveys as to (a) what outsourcers and translators think native language is and (b) the reason(s) why they, outsources and translators, respectively, specify and declare native speaker attribute.
Then proz.com can publish the results of those surveys.
Finally proz.com can stop guaranteeing accuracy of native speaker declaration.
Before that, though, proz.com needs to solve ASAP williamson's problem, i.e., being barred from bidding on the account of MS Word proficiency! Because solving that problem is proz.com core business. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
USA
Local time: 10:04
Członek ProZ.com
od 2006
norweski > angielski
+ ...
Williamson wrote:
I did not enter two "native languages", but I can understand that this system induces people, who master the target- language enter two languages. It gives them an opportunity to bid
This brings us back to Kim's question about making an option available for those translators who have acquired native-equivalent or near-native proficiency in a language to indicate this proficiency without inaccurately claiming it to be the native language.
I propose that ProZ.com users/members be given the option of indicating language proficiency with the following codes.
N (= native)
NE (= native-equivalent)
NN (= near-native)
Unlike codes using A, B, C, 1,2,3, etc., the purpose of these 3 codes is not to indicate that one category reflects higher proficiency than another, but to indicate that they are essentially equivalent. Users/members can claim native language level proficiency without inaccurately claiming native language status.
Job posters could be encouraged to adopt the classification when posting jobs, stipulating that translators be N/NE/NN in order to bid when native language proficiency is requested.
[Edited at 2007-01-07 22:09]
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Can Altinbay
Local time: 13:04
japoński > angielski
+ ...
In Memoriam | No one is going to hire a near or equivalent | Jan 7, 2007 |
Michele Fauble wrote: Williamson wrote:
I did not enter two "native languages", but I can understand that this system induces people, who master the target- language enter two languages. It gives them an opportunity to bid
This brings us back to Kim's question about making an option available for those translators who have acquired native-equivalent or near-native proficiency in a language to indicate this proficiency without inaccurately claiming it to be the native language. I propose that ProZ.com users/members be given the option of indicating language proficiency with the following codes. N (= native) NE (= native-equivalent) NN (= near-native) Unlike codes using A, B, C, 1,2,3, etc., the purpose of these 3 codes is not to indicate that one category reflects higher proficiency than another, but to indicate that they are essentially equivalent. Users/members can claim native language level proficiency without inaccurately claiming native language status. Job posters could be encouraged to adopt the classification when posting jobs, stipulating that translators be N/NE/NN in order to bid when native language proficiency is requested. [Edited at 2007-01-07 22:09]
As usual, I have to protest all efforts to bring "near native" "native equivalent" and other terms into this. Come on. Who is going to hire me if I'm "near native" or "native equivalent"?
As I said before, I'm very much a proponent of proper and correct language, but there are bigger fish to fry, and it's my livelihood that is at stake. Potential clients aren't going to weigh the niceties, and they don't care about the true meaning of "native speaker" and how irrelevant that is to the quality of translation they are going to receive. They are going to insist on "native". They are going to regard "near" and "equivalent" as not good enough.
I also realize that the original intent of the thread was to look at the term "native speaker", but inevitably it goes into a discussion of whether people who may be well qualified, but were not blessed with place of birth or parents to be real natives should be "allowed" to "be dishonest".
As things stand, for English (and probably other languages), there are many who claim to be "native" who don't have any idea how an English sentence is put together. THAT is what we need to be worried about first.
| | | | Can Altinbay
Local time: 13:04
japoński > angielski
+ ...
In Memoriam | Does ProZ really guarantee native language claims? | Jan 7, 2007 |
Malik Yenigelen wrote:
What impact would each of the two alternative courses of action defined below have on the number of proz.com members?
a) Proz.com would continue to *guarantee* accuracy of translator's claim about native language(s).
I just read the FAQ, and I don't think ProZ guarantees this. It "certifies" the native language claim automatically, leaving it entirely up to the user/member. It cannot and should not make any guarantees based on this. As it stands, many who declare English as their native language are not able to put together a correct English sentence. I cannot believe that they are "native" even according to Kim's definition, and ProZ would be out a lot of money, possibly out of business, very quickly if they made this sort of guarantee.
Maybe an assessment from peers should be implemented for those who declare just one native language, too.
| | | | Williamson
Wielka Brytania
Local time: 18:04
flamandzki > angielski
+ ...
| Grammar and style. | Jan 8, 2007 |
How to construct a correct (English)sentence has nothing to do with nativeness, but with mastery of grammar (semantics, syntax) and (the)(appropriate) style-(register).
Nobody is going to hire a near-native?
I translated from German into English. Both are not my native language.
The translation was reviewed by a native at the client's company. The result was ok.
[Edited at 2007-01-08 09:36]
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
Sorry, I should have referred to Michele Fauble as "she", not "he", in my post above dated January 6th.
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Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| Don't add new grades / qualifications; keep proz.com out of accreditation business; and... | Jan 8, 2007 |
Fellas, I'd say don't introduce new grades / qualification before getting a fix on the current one. OK, Michele is perhaps really suggesting three different names for one functional effect. Nevertheless that would add to confusion, not reduce it. That's one point.
The second point is that there should be no such thing as "proz.com credentials" in any sense of proz.com acting like an accreditation body.
Proz.com says they are a "directory". Directory is not even "regist... See more Fellas, I'd say don't introduce new grades / qualification before getting a fix on the current one. OK, Michele is perhaps really suggesting three different names for one functional effect. Nevertheless that would add to confusion, not reduce it. That's one point.
The second point is that there should be no such thing as "proz.com credentials" in any sense of proz.com acting like an accreditation body.
Proz.com says they are a "directory". Directory is not even "registry", I mean as in "trade registry". So perhaps proz.com needs to do some hard thinking in terms defining what business they are in.
Now, I have a question:
Michele Fauble wrote:
"...native language proficiency.."
The term "native language" is clearly there; I think its origins can be traced. That term Michele uses, i.e., "native language proficiency" is interesting. Is that an established term? Is there any such thing as "native language proficiency" in the sense that one has "proficiency at the native speaker level" (does that make sense?) in a language that is not his or her mother tounge?
If the answer to that question is yes, then perhaps the right direction to go is to either replace "native speaker" designation at proz.com with "native language proficiency" or --- add it? Ooops. I got back to what Michele was suggesting?
But a warning: "Native language proficiency" might fail to convey the meaning intended -- e.g., consider "native language proficiency of George Bush". I mean "native language proficiency" might mean one's proficiency in his or her mother tounge / native langauge.
It might well be that proz.com should exclude that term, "native" from its *nomenclature (spell?)*.
At any rate, I's say again that do the study first, as I suggested in a preceding note in bold letters.
[Edited at 2007-01-08 13:09] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | optional Proz.com "nativeness certification" is the solution | Jan 8, 2007 |
Whenever this topic has surfaced I have always sought to identify a meaning of the word "native" which would be appropriate for Proz.com as a language services marketplace. This is more difficult than one might imagine.
For example, there are many illiterate people in the UK. They cannot spell, their grammar is terrible and they make mistakes when speaking English ("We was going to the shop", "So I says to him" etc). Are they native speakers? Grudgingly, one would have to admit that... See more Whenever this topic has surfaced I have always sought to identify a meaning of the word "native" which would be appropriate for Proz.com as a language services marketplace. This is more difficult than one might imagine.
For example, there are many illiterate people in the UK. They cannot spell, their grammar is terrible and they make mistakes when speaking English ("We was going to the shop", "So I says to him" etc). Are they native speakers? Grudgingly, one would have to admit that they are unless one is prepared to suggest that there are millions of people around the world without a native language.
Another example: somebody born in the UK who moved to Germany at the age of 18. She has lived in Germany for 42 years and, through her deep interest in German culture and the language, is now in a position to produce written texts that are far superior to those of her German friends and colleagues. Unfortunately, however, she was never able to eliminate a rather thick English accent and sounds obviously foreign to the native ear. Is she a native speaker? I'd venture a guess to the effect that most people would be unwilling to accept somebody with a thick accent as a native speaker of a language.
And the final example: a German who moved to the UK at the age of 20 and spent 30 years in a business that involved talking to people on the phone and in person. As a result of this process he got rid of his German accent and is thus regularly mistaken for someone born & bred in the UK. However, his command of written English improved little in that time and he still makes spelling and grammatical mistakes, uses German constructions and is otherwise unable to express himself in clear and correct written English. Is he a native speaker of English? Again, most would argue that he is not since he can't write a proper sentence in English.
Given the 3 examples, it is now important to consider the context of this discussion. We are talking about *language services*, not sociolinguistics. In my view, from the language service perspective, people in example 1 are not native speakers, the lady in example 2 should be considered a native when it comes to translation, while the guy in example 3 is a native for interpreting purposes.
Therefore, if a translator claims to be a native speaker of Farsi on Proz.com all we need to do is verify that their written command of Farsi is of a certain level.
As someone with two genuine native languages I would more than welcome the opportunity to have my nativeness certified here at Proz.com and would be willing to pay a small fee for the service in return for a "CERTIFIED NATIVE LANGUAGES" notice on my profile ▲ Collapse
| | | | Malik Beytek (X)
Local time: 20:04
| About nature of accreditation / certification etc. | Jan 8, 2007 |
There, Konstantin speaks in terms of what's what kind of approach that I have been looking for. Very helpful in reducing confusion.
About accreditation -- for it to be worthwhile to any body, there are two requirements:
1- It must be reliable.
2- It must be perceived to be reliable by relevant parties - it must enjoy general acceptance.
Else, it is going to be as good as home-made money and the maker is not going to gain from it, even if the m... See more There, Konstantin speaks in terms of what's what kind of approach that I have been looking for. Very helpful in reducing confusion.
About accreditation -- for it to be worthwhile to any body, there are two requirements:
1- It must be reliable.
2- It must be perceived to be reliable by relevant parties - it must enjoy general acceptance.
Else, it is going to be as good as home-made money and the maker is not going to gain from it, even if the maker has satisfied condition # 1 above. ▲ Collapse
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