| Páginas no tópico: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Born-again (and self-proclaimed) "natives"? Tópico cartaz: Francis Lee (X)
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| 2 possibilities: you either are a native speaker or you are not. | Sep 24, 2006 |
I've noticed that a couple of colleagues on one of my language sites have recently 'promoted' themselves to English native speakers and now have 2 native tongues, and one even lists 2 native tongues neither of which is the real native tongue.
You are born into a language that you speak at home and usually grow up in, do your schooling in etc. THAT is your native language. If you are born into one language that you speak at home, but have another language you use all the time outside the h... See more I've noticed that a couple of colleagues on one of my language sites have recently 'promoted' themselves to English native speakers and now have 2 native tongues, and one even lists 2 native tongues neither of which is the real native tongue.
You are born into a language that you speak at home and usually grow up in, do your schooling in etc. THAT is your native language. If you are born into one language that you speak at home, but have another language you use all the time outside the home and do all your schooling in that, you may very well have TWO native languages.
But if you started a second (or third or fourth etc) language at school, moved to a different country as a child or adult, spent years living abroad etc., then you can only have ONE native language (the one you were born into). You may achieve complete fluency in the second language, consider yourself to be a total master of the second language, but it will never be your native language. Saying so won't make it happen. A native language is what it is and should not be confused with fluency, amazing skills, mastery beyond belief or anything else. You can not acquire a new native language. By definition, that's impossible.
[Edited at 2006-09-24 15:52] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kim Metzger 
México
Local time: 08:41
alemão para inglês
| Language map - translators vs. interpreters | Sep 24, 2006 |
As Marc said, a translator is a professional writer and must thus have the ability to produce publishable writing in his/her target language. Whether the translator speaks the target language with native proficiency is relatively unimportant.
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 16:41
alemão para inglês
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CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | But back to the real issue (i.e. indisputably non-native) | Sep 24, 2006 |
I must say I am heartened by a "second wave" of feedback after this discussion had appeared to die an early death last week.
BUT my immediate concern (and I am also guilty of diverging) is not the "non-/near-native" issue (and associated working languages) in general but those individuals who QUITE CLEARLY are misleading colleagues and clients alike when suddenly claiming "native" status on Proz.com - whether through self-delusion or deliberate deceit. Other contributors to this deb... See more I must say I am heartened by a "second wave" of feedback after this discussion had appeared to die an early death last week.
BUT my immediate concern (and I am also guilty of diverging) is not the "non-/near-native" issue (and associated working languages) in general but those individuals who QUITE CLEARLY are misleading colleagues and clients alike when suddenly claiming "native" status on Proz.com - whether through self-delusion or deliberate deceit. Other contributors to this debate have pointed out an example within this very thread.
I would suggested implementing the following (based on Ruth Henderson's input)
- have "native language(s)" initially limited to one, with the addition of further mother tongues being subject to verification IN PERSON, e.g. at Powwows
(this will obviously not be possible in many languages/countries, but I'm in my case talking about German)
- (as a general point) have said native language displayed at all times next to a colleague's name - e.g. also when a Kudoz Asker (which is currently not the case)
The overwhelming majority of translator colleagues I know personally either have never heard of Proz.com or want nothing to do with it for reasons including the above. Surely it's in the site's image-related interests to implement certain changes/reforms?
As for the general "(non-)natives" issue ...
Jonathan Lukens wrote:
the client will figure it out. ... However, I'm positive that any agency that uses an editor will recognize that something's fishy after one document, and if the agency doesn't employ an editor, the end client will figure it out.
I wish that were true, Jonathan, but a lot of work is direct-to-client stuff organised through "connections", which in my case means German clients who are ultimately not in a position to judge the quality of the product. I have bookmarked dozens of web references - including some major German corporations - where the English is shocking, i.e. counter-productive to that client's interests.
If I ever run out of work, these are the first people I will be approaching ...
Thanks to all, but in particular to Pavle Perencevic: fantastic stuff! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Pavle Perencevic
Canadá
Local time: 07:41
Membro (2002)
sérvio para inglês
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| No surrender expected! | Sep 24, 2006 |
[quote]Claire Titchmarsh wrote:
Pavle Perencevic wrote:
To Pavel:
Whether your post was tongue-in-cheek or not, there were a couple of things that I couldn't ignore:
Claire, I actually agree with all the points you made. My post was indeed tongue-in-cheek. Every single sentence of it
It's easier to draw a square circle than acquire a new mother tongue.
I may be wrong, but my guess is that people started acquiring new mother tongues on proz.com after it became possible for agencies to exclude non-natives as potential bidders. The obvious solution for some - expand your list of native languages. Problem solved!
I think that's about the most unethical thing you can do in this business. It's almost as pathetic as posting somebody else's photos as your own on dating sites. Fortunately, there's only so far you can go with these scams: the first date... or paragraph.
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Claire Titchmarsh (X)
Local time: 16:41
italiano para inglês
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| Thank you, Pavle | Sep 24, 2006 |
so my comments are re-directed at all those people who would be more at home watching those sitcoms than on this site.
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Estados Unidos
Local time: 07:41
inglês para alemão
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In memoriam | Here is one from those offenders | Sep 25, 2006 |
I am a German native speaker and will always be.
Yes, I added the reversed language pair to my profile. Why?
One of my longtime and regular clients here in the US started sending G>E projects - after countless E>G ones. We are on the phone at least 4 times a week. They interviewed me, checked me out, tested me and yet, they still want me to provide G>E translations. Oh my, I am not a native speaker! After the first couples of jobs they wanted more, so I added German>English to... See more I am a German native speaker and will always be.
Yes, I added the reversed language pair to my profile. Why?
One of my longtime and regular clients here in the US started sending G>E projects - after countless E>G ones. We are on the phone at least 4 times a week. They interviewed me, checked me out, tested me and yet, they still want me to provide G>E translations. Oh my, I am not a native speaker! After the first couples of jobs they wanted more, so I added German>English to my language pairs. I promise to stand in the corner for the rest of the week and be very ashamed. Maybe they don't speak English at this huge Florida translation firm here in the US?
No, I have never been an exchange student and thank God have never attended a US high school. I did not learn English on the streets either.
English language education in Germany starts at 4th grade and continues through your 13 years of school, besides Latin and French until you obtain your diploma. To access university to study advertising/marketing requires fluency in a second language or you will not be admitted. I then worked at international ad agencies and communication happened to be in English.
I live in the US, I am running a marketing co. and I am married to an American (English Master, BTW), who proofreads and edits my entire output.
I addition I am halfway done with my 3-4 years education to obtain my translator's certification in my reversed language pair, just for the heck of it.
I will now go back into my corner and continue being ashamed.
I am also tired to be picked on by personal emails written by a certain well-meaning English native speaker.
Best,
Nicole
PS. This message isn't proofread or edited whatsover. Neither are KudoZ posts. Fora have their own lingo. It's all about communication. I see German posts by high-end German translators and they are crawling with typos. So?
[Edited at 2006-09-25 03:11] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Nicole Schnell
Estados Unidos
Local time: 07:41
inglês para alemão
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In memoriam | There is more | Sep 25, 2006 |
What makes a native speaker?
Years ago, I had a colleague in account management in an international ad agency. Claiming to be a native speaker, she offered to translate a brochure for one of my clients, a world market leader. It was a disaster and I had to travel to their headquarters and soak up the malicious comments about the worst translation ever provided to the world. It turned out that this particular lady had left England at the tender age of 3. Oh, but she was a native spea... See more What makes a native speaker?
Years ago, I had a colleague in account management in an international ad agency. Claiming to be a native speaker, she offered to translate a brochure for one of my clients, a world market leader. It was a disaster and I had to travel to their headquarters and soak up the malicious comments about the worst translation ever provided to the world. It turned out that this particular lady had left England at the tender age of 3. Oh, but she was a native speaker! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
Estados Unidos
Local time: 07:41
Membro (2006)
norueguês para inglês
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| You are not an offender | Sep 25, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
... Yes, I added the reversed language pair to my profile. ...
[Edited at 2006-09-25 03:11]
But you have not inaccurately declared English as a native language on your profile page. That is what is at issue here.
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| Don't be offended if you're not an offender yourself | Sep 25, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
Here is one from those offenders
I am a German native speaker and will always be.
Yes, I added the reversed language pair to my profile. Why?
Because your clients demand it and are satisfied with your output. End of story.
As far as I can see you're not trying to fool anybody regarding your native language. And that, in turn, means you're obviously not one of the "offenders" that are the subject of this thread. Relax, take a cookie.
Regards,
Benjamin
(d'oh, Michele beat me to it)
[Edited at 2006-09-25 08:31]
| | | | | Working language vs. native language | Sep 25, 2006 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
I am a German native speaker and will always be.
Yes, I added the reversed language pair to my profile. Why?
One of my longtime and regular clients here in the US started sending G>E projects - after countless E>G ones. We are on the phone at least 4 times a week. They interviewed me, checked me out, tested me and yet, they still want me to provide G>E translations.
I think we need to distinguish between working language and native language.
Nicole, you've cited English as a WORKING language and are totally honest to your customers about it. Nothing wrong with that. On top of that, you're very scrupulous about your work and have your husband proof it.
Your profile is perfectly honest about your NATIVE language.
What we're talking about here is people who CLAIM to be natives when it simply ain't true.
Catherine
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| Using "native" to mean "dominant" language | Sep 25, 2006 |
You can only be native of one place, no doubt about this, even if you have 2 nationalities from two countries just separated by a borderline and that you live on the frontier (like myself).
The problem is the site asks about your "native language" or "mother language" and this leads to many problems.
I know a Dutch, a British and many Spanish-born people whose dominant languge is now French. In fact three of them are translators and they don't translate into their real ... See more You can only be native of one place, no doubt about this, even if you have 2 nationalities from two countries just separated by a borderline and that you live on the frontier (like myself).
The problem is the site asks about your "native language" or "mother language" and this leads to many problems.
I know a Dutch, a British and many Spanish-born people whose dominant languge is now French. In fact three of them are translators and they don't translate into their real "native" language any longer because through years of living and working in France, reading French newspapers, watching French TV, having only French-speaking friends etc. their first langage has become French. One of them, my GP doctor who was born in Spain and lived there until he went to University is now 45 and has a terrible French accent and grammar etc. when he speaks Spanish.
So ... dichotomic categories (yes/no) don't always fit humans... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 16:41
alemão para inglês
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CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | I don't mean those who really have "turned native" | Sep 25, 2006 |
Patricia Posadas wrote:
they don't translate into their real "native" language any longer because through years of living and working in France, reading French newspapers, watching French TV, having only French-speaking friends etc. their first langage has become French.
Fair point. I remember visiting the Volkswagen plant as a teenager, where our guide was, we were informed, British - but spoke English with a German accent and even had a funny moustache and rolled-up jacket-sleeves (this is the 80s). Yes, he'd genuinely "gone native", i.e. West German (sorry, cheep jab, nothing personal against anyone on this thread!). But these are EXTREMELY RARE exceptions. And I for my part have seen NONE such individuals on the Ger/Eng section of Proz.com.
What I'm talking about (i.e. the bad boys & girls) are those individuals who claim they have "native" profiency in a certain language when this is quite clearly not the case. Typically, there is not even any specific justification on their Proz.com profile for claiming this. In the "BEST" cases, we can only gather that they've been living in an (in my case) English-speaking country for a couple of years - and in ALL cases, the English they write in their profiles/Kudoz comments might well be very good - but there is a huge and immediately clear difference between (native) typos/being sloppy and the kind of English that no native would EVER write.
Perhaps this statement will bring us all back to the main issue here:
Nicole Schnell and "efreitag" (who have both contributed to this thread), for example, rightly state their native language as German (only) - but have a FAR SUPERIOR command of English (and related cultural insights) than most so-called dual-natives on the Ger/Eng site. Of the latter, we've so far sadly only heard (I think) from one. And what a sad contribution (but all the more illustrative of my point) that was ...
| | | | liz askew
Reino Unido
Local time: 15:41
Membro (2007)
francês para inglês
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| If the answerer is not a "native" he/she should say so! in the response. | Sep 25, 2006 |
Sometimes non-native speakers can find equivalents in the foreign language, which native speakers cannot find, owing to the subtleties in the original language.
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