| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | to Kudoz or not to Kudoz? that is the question Thread poster: Gad Kohenov
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X) 
Poland
Local time: 04:10
English to Polish
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| Let's not overdo it. | Jan 2, 2011 |
ildiko wrote:
I would even take it a step further: If *answerers* were also required to pay, say, a dollar or 50 cents per *answer*, this would reduce the number of weak guesses and utterly useless answers, i.e. those posted not for the sake of helping but strictly to gain virtual points; it would also swiftly and effectively take care of the annoyance currently being caused by the habitual googlers & point-hunters who answer nearly every question ever posted, regardless of the specialty field or their expertise and skills (or lack of).
Note that:
1. If answerers have to pay, it will freeze the system completely. People like myself – with a fairly high ratio of points-to-answers and a very high ratio of points-to-questions-asked – would simply cease to reply.
Perhaps I have just made myself look like a jackass, just to prove a point. That deserves $1.50
2. It's also unnecessary. The googlers and point-hunters target easy questions, which there would be no more if askers had to pay.
desertfox wrote:
Introducing money into the Kudoz-mania will only make things worse. Many good people will simply leave this website forever.
This is the same "there will be armageddon" argument that we heard when we were told to bail out the big banks and pay their CEOs fat bonuses.
Bother to explain how exactly introducing money will make things worse and have many good people leave this website forever? Isn't it true that in the current situation, where it is proz.com that's "paying" for the selected answers with directory positioning (incentivising askers to take on jobs outside their specialty), people increasingly ignore the KudoZ system?
[Edited at 2011-01-02 08:25 GMT]
| | | | veratek
Brazil
Local time: 23:10
French to English
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| there are so many obvious problems with the payment suggestion | Jan 2, 2011 |
[quote]ildiko wrote:
I fully support your suggestion, I think it's a great idea. I would even take it a step further: If *answerers* were also required to pay, say, a dollar or 50 cents per *answer*, this would reduce the number of weak guesses and utterly useless answers,
As far as I can see, the OP was sourly complaining that he isn't making enough money because of translators bidding for less on this site. The same sentiment seems to come from different people here. If they are already complaining about not earning as much money as they would like to, why in the world would they spend money then to ANSWER a question?
Maybe only to complain that they weren't paid enough in answering.
The other issue with money is that KudoZ is not a commercial service with a quality guarantee. Why should an asker pay for a service that may be completely flawed? I've seen so many instances of horrible answers. With a bit of luck someone capable of answering correctly participates, but that certainly is not mandatory.
Lastly, I think it's so incredibly naive to think that if KudoZ were paid or if you stipulated ratios, you are going to diminish the competition in the project bidding. It's not going to happen. In fact, the bidding competition will only further increase in the future.
| | | | | 100% agreed. I never used KudoZ exactly for that reason! | Jan 2, 2011 |
Hi Desertfox,
I am a full-time freelance translator since 1997 without any interruption and got to know about ProZ back in 2003 or so. (Thanks to the Czech government, the most spread internet connections in the Czech Republic were dial-up connections until 2005. DSL was expensive like hell.) When I understood, that I would have to give my knowledge away for free to the cheap newbies or wannabe-translators to promote my services, my first thought was, that there must be something wr... See more Hi Desertfox,
I am a full-time freelance translator since 1997 without any interruption and got to know about ProZ back in 2003 or so. (Thanks to the Czech government, the most spread internet connections in the Czech Republic were dial-up connections until 2005. DSL was expensive like hell.) When I understood, that I would have to give my knowledge away for free to the cheap newbies or wannabe-translators to promote my services, my first thought was, that there must be something wrong with sites like this. On the other hand it is impossible not to be present here nowadays; the disadvantage in comparison to the colleagues is too big. In fact I felt extorted and I never started to use KudoZ. I see the advantages of ProZ for translators, but on the other hand sites like this create some kind of "hyperactivity" and this must affect the health of translators in the long run. The KudoZ "game" is one of the worst hyperactivity-creators in my opinion, so I won't touch it.
Thank you a lot Desertfox for pointing this out.
René Stranz-Nikitin
www.uersn.de
Please note that English is neither my target language nor one of my source languages.
desertfox wrote: A translator from Chile already wrote an article in this site about it. He says having a lot of Kudoz points is a myth or a legend. It does not promote you in anything. On the contrary - you are selling your hard earned knowlege (25 years in my case) for free! Does Proz give you a free yearly membership for answering all these questions? no. Just points worth nothing! Who profits? the amateurs and exploiters who are allowed to enter Proz and not only bring harm the reputation of the webiste, but also get their jobs done by us and for free. We provied them with the tough terms and they just add the connecting words. Their job is done in a jiffy and they offer work for 0.05$us and laugh at us for doing their job for them time and again. People with a score of 200 questions asked VS 0 answered?? exploiters or amateurs who can barely write their name in English, let alone do by themselves a legal text. By answering them we are cutting the branch we are sitting on. In a few years we will have to work for next to nothing and blame ourselves for our blindness. We are not "upgraded typists" We studied and work for long years to get our superior knowledge of languages. There should be a line popping up when someone with a score of x to 0 asks a question. "This asker asked 1000 and answered 0". These people present a work that looks exactly as if we did it and give it for a lower price. Happy customer. Comes again and again to that translator. What do we get? Kudoz points worth nothing! I am not going to sell myelf short anymore. How about you. Those who answer all the time, in my case 10 times more answers than questions, should be rewarded by a free yearly memebership. And that for selling our knowledge for free. Else we should answer only those who answer (10 such people in every language combinations). We could declare a "Kudoz strike" for a week. I want to see how that will affect things. Or we could answer each other privately only (sending the questions privately to those who are known to answer legalese or any other subject in a certain language combination. Don't you get it? united we stand divided we fall (a free fall). The Italian translators got some changes here regarding prices. Agencies don't post prices now, they write best prices and bypass the new limitations. I just ignore them. So should you. The economic crash of 2008 has a second "leg" which everyone will feel very strong this year. European community? Micky Mouse crap. It will disintegrate in the future and there will be return to Marks, Francs and Pesetas etc. The UDS? the national debt will create inflation that will remind you of what happened in Yugoslavia in the 80s. an inflation of 5 with many many zeores after it. Euro does down, dollar goes down and we keep getting the same number of cents per word but it it is worth less and less by the day! And on top of that we sell our knowledge for free to the competition?? We are not Organized. We are used and abused according to the Roman law of "dividere et imperare" (divide and rule). Translation is a profession like any other liberal profession. We should make the change. No one will bring it about for us. If we all refuse to work for less than a certain price, agencies will have to go to amaterus, and if we don't answer their questions in Kudoz their work will be bad. That way clients will learn a lesson. Amaterus and machines are going to make their clients run away from them. What do you think? are you going to keep sellng your accumulated knowledge for free? for 4 points? A Happy New Years to all real translators wherever you are@@ Desertfox ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gad Kohenov
Israel
Local time: 05:10
English to Hebrew
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TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for your support. I agree. I feel like Emil Zatopek in a very long run leading to nowhere. He got medals and international recognition. What do I get? Kudoz points. The problem is you need many people thinking like you in order to have any influence in any industry.
How is Zlata Praha these days? Beautufil as ever?
D.F.
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member because it was not in line with site rule | | An improved formula (sounds like washing up liquid...) | Jan 2, 2011 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote:
OK, so all the notorious askers would have to do is post an answer (any answer) to any question before they post their own question.
A=1
Q=1
1/1 X 100 = 100%
They can still ask the question, and they just polluted another KudoZ question with a nonsense answer. Or more nonsense answers, if they wanted to boost their %.
How would this help?
Katalin
I see your point, Katalin, and am definitely aware that further tweaking is needed with this formula.
But if you read NataSogo's suggestion above, you'll see a nice improvement: she suggests that only accepted answers be counted, not just any rubbish answer.
That's already much better.
As for all the ideas running around here about charging for asking - I'm totally against it!
| | | | | What I would change | Jan 2, 2011 |
I don't think that paying for Kudoz is a good idea. Sooner or later askers won't ask, answerers won't answer, the Kudoz will die out.
What I would change though:
I would definitely add a rule against copy and paste type of answerers. Those are the real point-grabbers. There are people who give good answers, and these copy and paste type of people wait till 1-2 answers are given, and then either copy and paste one of the previous answers word-by-word or they slightly c... See more I don't think that paying for Kudoz is a good idea. Sooner or later askers won't ask, answerers won't answer, the Kudoz will die out.
What I would change though:
I would definitely add a rule against copy and paste type of answerers. Those are the real point-grabbers. There are people who give good answers, and these copy and paste type of people wait till 1-2 answers are given, and then either copy and paste one of the previous answers word-by-word or they slightly change it: like adding a noun or adding a word which is totally unnecessary or make a patchwork type of answer. The new trick is: when people give agrees to previous answers, and the peer commenter gives an adds-on to the answer within the agree, these "copy and pasters" copy and paste the suggested term given in the peer comment and add it as their own answers. So they wait until they get enough information to steal others' ideas. I am sure that this problem exists in many other language pairs.
Yes it happens that coincidently 2 or more people give exactly same answers with a time difference of 1-3 minutes but when such situation happens I give an agree to the person, who answered first. But when you see that people make a patchwork answer (copy and paste from previous answer) or copy and paste word-by-word 15 minutes to 2 days! later, that cannot be a coincidence.
Copying and pasting others' ideas either given as an answer or as a peer comment should be banned. It's like a plague, one person starts and others follow this trend. Basically we can draw a parallel between these "copy and pasters" and those askers who ask hundreds of questions and answer only a few ones, because copy and pasters usually give weak/incorrect answers if they answer alone (meaning without seeing previous answers). That's what I call point-grabbers. The system shouldn't support this unprofessional behavior.
Katalin
[Edited at 2011-01-02 15:38 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 04:10
French to German
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| Have you all... | Jan 2, 2011 |
taken part in the KudoZ survey (links visible on the ProZ.com homepage)?
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Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
taken part in the KudoZ survey (links visible on the ProZ.com homepage)?
Hi Laurent,
I started it yesterday, but I allowed my pc to be used by a friend and accidentally he closed all open sites. So my answers disappeared. lol
Do you know how long will the survey be available to answer?
Katalin
[Edited at 2011-01-02 11:39 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 04:10
French to German
+ ...
| Ask site staff | Jan 2, 2011 |
Katalin Szilárd wrote:
Hi Laurent,
I started it yesterday, but I allowed my pc to be used by a friend and accidentally he closed all open sites. So my answers disappeared. lol
Do you know how long will the survey be available to answer?
Katalin
Hi Katalin,
it will probably span over some weeks, but I have no clue about the actual cutoff date. Better ask site staff.
| | | | Ramey Rieger (X)
Germany
Local time: 04:10
German to English
| I'm a newbie, so... | Jan 2, 2011 |
the advantages of Kudoz points isn't obvious - but the disadvantages aren't either. I truly get a kick out of answering questions and recieving peer responses. The latter gets my name around and I get to know some colleagues.
I did quickly become aware of amateurs wanting answers to nearly every "difficult" term, which they, of course, could have researched themselves. To be avoided, I guess, but sometimes I just can't resist because it's fun.
I would not want to pay for answeri... See more the advantages of Kudoz points isn't obvious - but the disadvantages aren't either. I truly get a kick out of answering questions and recieving peer responses. The latter gets my name around and I get to know some colleagues.
I did quickly become aware of amateurs wanting answers to nearly every "difficult" term, which they, of course, could have researched themselves. To be avoided, I guess, but sometimes I just can't resist because it's fun.
I would not want to pay for answering questions - I think it's enough to pay for the membership, but perhaps a question rate for non-members would/could be effective in screening the parasites.
Wishing all of you out there a healthy and humorous New Year!
Ramey Rieger ▲ Collapse
| | | | TargamaT team
France
Local time: 04:10
Member (2010)
English to Arabic
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| Some thoughts for Open Market Era… :-) | Jan 2, 2011 |
• When you have a new inscription in Proz, you are accredited with 100 (for example) Kudoz points.
• When you have your pro inscription in Proz, your are accredited with 300 (for example) Kudoz points/year.
• Every question you ask will cost you 4 Kudoz points.
• Every good answer will offer you 4 Kudoz points.
• Trade your points with questions, with pro inscription fees or whatever services…
• Translator’s ranking... See more • When you have a new inscription in Proz, you are accredited with 100 (for example) Kudoz points.
• When you have your pro inscription in Proz, your are accredited with 300 (for example) Kudoz points/year.
• Every question you ask will cost you 4 Kudoz points.
• Every good answer will offer you 4 Kudoz points.
• Trade your points with questions, with pro inscription fees or whatever services…
• Translator’s ranking will depend on answers/questions/fees/ etc…
et...
Tant que j’gagne je joue (Coluche) ▲ Collapse
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Shai Navé
Israel
Local time: 05:10
English to Hebrew
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| Some suggestions | Jan 2, 2011 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
taken part in the KudoZ survey (links visible on the ProZ.com homepage)?
+1. Please do. It can help "quantify" this discussion into trends, and this is important. However, I don't think (I've already completed it) that is addresses everything that was said in here, so it is a good place to start, but this discussion provides a deeper insight.
desertfox wrote:
You were probably quite upset while writing this. You forgot to proofread your posting. But you can do it retroactively.
Hello DF. I wasn't angry per se, but as you know, this subject has troubled me for a long time now, and when I started to write my post, the content just emotionally poured out of me...my thoughts were probably faster than my typing.
Back to the discussion's topic.
I suggest some potential solutions:
1. Hardening the Kudoz rules, applying stricter limitations on the number of daily, monthly and yearly questions. I suggest 1, 10, and 30 for non-payers, and 5, 15, and 50-60 for paying members. I also think that an arguably better course of action might be setting a flat amount of, say, 30 for non-paying, and 60 for paying member questions per year. This might make people more cautious about "spending" Kudoz questions and be more calculated about it.
2. A more strict enforcement of the rules by moderators and peers (who will need to report Kudoz abuse whenever they encounter one). This includes a better moderation of Kudoz etiquette. For example, If someone answered first and the asker granted the point to a "point grabber" that "stole" the answer - the moderator should reverse that decision - maybe even penalize the "point grabber" (a simple deletion of the duplicate, redundant answer should do). Muting people who ask but not close questions or grant on a regular basis only few points with no apparent reason, and other such improper conduct, and irrelevant agendas.
3. Setting a ratio (as was discussed). Those who won't adhere to it will be muted or a notice will appear by their name. A break-in period of 10-15 questions will be granted to new members.
4. Eliminate or significantly reduce the significance of Kudoz in regard to the directory ranking. The current situation in which the ranking are being set solely on the basis of Kudoz points is unreasonable, unhealthy, and counter-productive in my opinion. Kudoz should be only one of the factors taken into consideration.
5. No matter what mechanism will be put in place, there are no alternatives to using our common sense and judgment, as well as constant communication in the forum about tweaks, issues, etc. We need to educate newbies and even long time colleagues about it. Only now I realize, based on the participation in this discussion, that I should have posted this topic a few months ago instead of holding back.
I have some more suggestions (not allowing people with an empty profile to ask questions, etc) but these are the main ones. 1-3 will reduce the number of Kudoz exploits and abuse, improve (hopefully) the atmosphere, and address undesired conduct by some members. Then, point number 4 will come into effect and reduce the number of false-registrations to the site just for the sake of gaining access to Kudoz, will reduce the unnecessary competition and the number of point grabbers who will no longer benefit so much by it. In whole, this approach will hopefully help steer the boat in a more productive, professional, and healthy direction.
I welcome your feedback, and would appreciate if Proz Staff members who might be following this discussion will respond as well. Maybe we can establish some kind of workgroup or think-tank on this subject.
Shai
[Edited at 2011-01-02 15:54 GMT]
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All this concern about bad translators stealing our jobs through using Proz, I wonder if it would really be any better if our jobs were "stolen" by good translators.
The issue of people who are basically incompetent being able to produce good translations thanks to Proz has been discussed here many times and the consensus in the past was that if you don't know how to write, you don't know how to write, no matter how much terminology you are able to get off Proz.
We ar... See more All this concern about bad translators stealing our jobs through using Proz, I wonder if it would really be any better if our jobs were "stolen" by good translators.
The issue of people who are basically incompetent being able to produce good translations thanks to Proz has been discussed here many times and the consensus in the past was that if you don't know how to write, you don't know how to write, no matter how much terminology you are able to get off Proz.
We are living in anxious times, but should we let the paranoia get to us? Surely we should have enough confidence in our own abilities to be able to help new translators?
Why are inexperienced translators being referred as if they were cheats?
The kudoz system was designed as a win-win scheme, where we could all help each other, with the points as an added incentive for answering. This thread is all about penalizing people for asking questions and penalizing others for answering them, what is the good of that?
In my language pair, Spanish-English, we have some very generous, and dare I say confident, people who answer regularly. They are obviously not afraid of the competition and neither should they be. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gad Kohenov
Israel
Local time: 05:10
English to Hebrew
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TOPIC STARTER
I still remember Skyping you when I first tested my Skype connection around 5-6 years ago. I also happen to answer in the Spanish>English pair. I even managed to snatch points from the great Henry Hinds several times. People tend to give so much respect to people with his great number of points that it became a conditioned relfex. I give the point to the best answer not to the generally better translator, let alone better Kudozian.
What you call inexperienced translators are many times peo... See more I still remember Skyping you when I first tested my Skype connection around 5-6 years ago. I also happen to answer in the Spanish>English pair. I even managed to snatch points from the great Henry Hinds several times. People tend to give so much respect to people with his great number of points that it became a conditioned relfex. I give the point to the best answer not to the generally better translator, let alone better Kudozian.
What you call inexperienced translators are many times people with no professional diploma whatsoever. They have no right in calling themselves translators. Why can't people be laywers etc. without studies and a diploma? Why should translation be a second-rate profession for people who were fired from work or who reach retirement age? Don't be too generous. We are not in the 60s now.
The young generation is different. They don't respect anyone or anything (not everyone of course!). Asking 100 legal questions and answering none? Why don't I do their translation for them for free and everyone will be happy?
Anyway, translators are individualists and I doubt anything operational will be achieved here. And of course every pair of language I Kudoz in is has different people. British fair play in the Middle East (for example)? Give me a break!
Saludos,
D.F. ▲ Collapse
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