| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Voters for removal of useless reclassification as PRO / non-PRO. Thread poster: Michael Beijer
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Andy S
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:10
German to English
...one or twice I feel the voting system has been misused - what about cases of everyday words in very specific, specialised contexts? Should they be re-classed as non-PRO?
| | | | | Change the name altogether: Difficult and Easy | Jul 28, 2009 |
Since the rewritten rule actually links non-pro questions to non-pro translators only (!), I suggest changing the classifications to Difficult and Easy. That way it is CLEAR that it refers to the question only and doesn't relate to the Asker at all.
How absurd to state that a non-pro question is one asked by a non-professional translator!! No wonder people go ballistic when their questions are made non-pro. Who cares who is asking the question. An easy question is one that anyone can answ... See more Since the rewritten rule actually links non-pro questions to non-pro translators only (!), I suggest changing the classifications to Difficult and Easy. That way it is CLEAR that it refers to the question only and doesn't relate to the Asker at all.
How absurd to state that a non-pro question is one asked by a non-professional translator!! No wonder people go ballistic when their questions are made non-pro. Who cares who is asking the question. An easy question is one that anyone can answer, with a dico or not and a difficult question is one that could even make specialists in the field do some research. That was the original idea but even that seems to have been swung around to help lower the level of Kudoz.
Yesterday, someone ranting about the fact 3 people voted an easy question to non-pro posted the following:
"Non-PRO questions are those that are asked by people who are not professional translators, and that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary."
So he was in fact accusing the voting translators of dissing the Asker. When one reads the current wording, it does look like that. And it was an easy question. Well and truly.
I think the connection between question level and level of Asker should be removed. Difficult questions, easy questions. After all, that is what it's about. As long as it is allowed to interpret (certain) rules word for word, then perhaps it's a good idea to simplify them and make them fair.
Or, just remove the classifications altogether, since the wording of the current rule makes them completely meaningless. A question is a question and that's that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Anne-Marie Grant (X) 
Local time: 07:10
French to English
+ ...
| It is also odd that we expect the asker to rate their own question | Jul 28, 2009 |
as pro or non-pro. If s/he feels the need to ask the question, will s/he be able to correctly judge how difficult or easy it is for others to answer? This is particularly true for novice site users. Surely, if there is any classification to be done it should be after the question has been posted, by a nominated group of people applying objective standards (dare I suggest moderators?) If this is too difficult to organise, I suggest we scrap the distinction and allow the site's professional transl... See more as pro or non-pro. If s/he feels the need to ask the question, will s/he be able to correctly judge how difficult or easy it is for others to answer? This is particularly true for novice site users. Surely, if there is any classification to be done it should be after the question has been posted, by a nominated group of people applying objective standards (dare I suggest moderators?) If this is too difficult to organise, I suggest we scrap the distinction and allow the site's professional translators to use their professional judgment about whether the asker needs to be politely reminded of the other options available to them before they post a question.
[Edited at 2009-07-28 14:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:10
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | We should spend our valuable time answering these questions, not classifying them. | Jul 28, 2009 |
The classification system, either the old one, and/or the rewritten new one (which, links non-pro questions to non-pro translators only, which is obviously ridiculous!!!) is simply not practicable or useful. It was a valiant attempt to force things into nice neat logical categories, which will quite simply never result in more than either
(at best) wasting our time, or,
(at worst) making it impossible to use the system for what it is actually for, which is:
-----------... See more The classification system, either the old one, and/or the rewritten new one (which, links non-pro questions to non-pro translators only, which is obviously ridiculous!!!) is simply not practicable or useful. It was a valiant attempt to force things into nice neat logical categories, which will quite simply never result in more than either
(at best) wasting our time, or,
(at worst) making it impossible to use the system for what it is actually for, which is:
----------------------------
1. I have a question.
2. So, I ask my fellow translators or language experts, or, and I really don't care WHO tries to help out (I myself am quite capable of judging if what they say is nonsense or not) ... anyone who is capable of saying something meaningful and/or useful on the topic.
3. People offer answers.
4. A discussion (possibly) ensues.
5. I/we hopefully find the/an answer.
----------------------------
Are we really so afraid of people sneakily snatching away our KudoZ points, or lowering the level, or whatever kind of other silly (to me) arguments/reasons/examples I have seen put forth in favour of classification?
Even if the question is Professional/non-Professional - or - Easy/Difficult, I still believe that this distinction doesn't really mean much, as a so-called Easy question can be answered in a Difficult way, and a Difficult question can be answered in an Easy way, etc, etc, etc.
We should spend our valuable time answering these questions, not classifying them. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | According to the current rules, all questions are pro | Jul 28, 2009 |
Anne-Marie Grant wrote:
as pro or non-pro. If s/he feels the need to ask the question, will s/he be able to correctly judge how difficult or easy it is for others to answer? This is particularly true for novice site users. Surely, if there is any classification to be done it should be after the question has been posted, by a nominated group of people applying objective standards (dare I suggest moderators?) If this is too difficult to organise, I suggest we scrap the distinction and allow the site's professional translators to use their professional judgment about whether the asker needs to be politely reminded of the other options available to them before they post a question.
[Edited at 2009-07-28 14:45 GMT]
According to the current rules, non-pro questions are virtually limited to someone who stumbles in off the street and posts a question. Everyone on the site is presumed to be a "pro" translator, so a moderator, who, according to site policy, is not a language authority and who is only there to police the site and make sure all rules are obeyed to the letter, would be bound by the rules to make every question pro.
That's why I feel we need to get away from the pro/non-pro mania and go back to basics: Difficult questions and Easy questions.
Or to end the discussion once and for all, do away with classifying questions, since the current classifications are basically meaningless.
| | | | | Changing the naming to Easy and Difficult is a good idea | Jul 28, 2009 |
writeaway wrote:
I think the connection between question level and level of Asker should be removed. Difficult questions, easy questions. After all, that is what it's about.
I never linked the question level and the level of the asker in my mind, but as it seems many people do, I think it is a good idea to change the naming of the categories.
After all, easy questions can be asked by professional translators, and visitors can ask really tricky questions sometimes, too.
I would definitely vote for the changing the labels.
Katalin
| | | | | Agree completely | Jul 28, 2009 |
Katalin Horvath McClure wrote: writeaway wrote:
I think the connection between question level and level of Asker should be removed. Difficult questions, easy questions. After all, that is what it's about. I never linked the question level and the level of the asker in my mind, but as it seems many people do, I think it is a good idea to change the naming of the categories. After all, easy questions can be asked by professional translators, and visitors can ask really tricky questions sometimes, too. I would definitely vote for the changing the labels. Katalin
Couldn't agree more. My thoughts too. It's about the question. Nothing to do with the 'level' of the Asker.
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| What are you talking about? | Jul 28, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
The classification system, ...
(at worst) making it impossible to use the system for what it is actually for, which is:
...
Michael, please enlighten me: How on Earth does the classification of questions into Easy/Difficult make it impossible to use the system to achieve what you listed?
Are we really so afraid of people sneakily snatching away our KudoZ points, or lowering the level, or whatever kind of other silly (to me) arguments/reasons/examples I have seen put forth in favour of classification?
Are you so afraid of your questions being reclassified?
Come on!!!
Nobody is talking about "sneakily snatching away points" - by the way, how would that be an argument in favor of classification? Or lowering the level? What level? The questions are there, as long as they meet the KudoZ rules, they stay, they don't get squashed or anything, nobody is talking about getting rid of questions that are easy or something...
a so-called Easy question can be answered in a Difficult way, and a Difficult question can be answered in an Easy way
I am not sure I understand what you mean here. The categories are defined based on the source text, not HOW it is answered.
You keep forgetting two things:
1. The KudoZ exchange does not end with the asker getting the answer. The Glossary lives on. A distinction between easy and difficult or tricky questions is useful in case ProZ decides to do a bit more with the KudoZ archives - for example creating specific field-focused glossaries (that would not need to contain "easy" questions, for example). Changing the category therefore can happen even after the question is closed.
2. There are answerers who prefer to choose what type of questions they answer. I think you should respect their decision if they decide not to receive notifications about Easy questions, whatever their reason is.
We should spend our valuable time answering these questions, not classifying them.
Excuse me, but how much time do you waste when you click on a radio button (which is set to Pro as default anyway, so you could leave it as is, and others can deal with it if needed)?
How much time do your peers waste if they click the "Vote for Pro" or Vote for Non-Pro" button? Negligible, and anyway, it is their choice. Some people see it important to classify the questions properly, so they check the classification, think about it, and if they think the current classification is not right, they have the option to do something about it. What is wrong with that?
If you prefer spending your time only answering the questions, and never ever ever ever ever want think about the classification of the question, that is fine. But why are you trying to tell other people how they should spend their time?
Katalin
| | | | Michael Beijer
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:10
Member (2009)
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | There are no easy answers. | Jul 28, 2009 |
What do I mean by 'A so-called Easy question can be answered in a Difficult way, and a Difficult question can be answered in an Easy way.' ? Ha ha, that's a good question.
What I am trying to say, and yes I know, I am not going about this in a very methodical or professional manner ... is that the very IDEA of classifying these questions is simply ... how shall I put it ... wrong. I just don't see that it can actually be done. I have given it a lot of thought, and I just cannot see... See more What do I mean by 'A so-called Easy question can be answered in a Difficult way, and a Difficult question can be answered in an Easy way.' ? Ha ha, that's a good question.
What I am trying to say, and yes I know, I am not going about this in a very methodical or professional manner ... is that the very IDEA of classifying these questions is simply ... how shall I put it ... wrong. I just don't see that it can actually be done. I have given it a lot of thought, and I just cannot seem to understand what a non-PRO question would actually look like, which is why I always select Pro. Writeaway's suggested 'easy' and 'difficult' is a bit of an improvement, but also essentially doomed to fail.
Katalin, when I say '(at worst) the classification system might/can/could make it impossible to use the system for what it is actually for' ... I am of course exaggerating, however, especially now that the system seems to have been changed so that if a question is classified as non-Pro it only goes to the Pros ...well, that, is one example of the system getting in the way of itself.
I understand people's desire to try and classify their questions, I just don't believe that it can be done. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | What are you talking about (again)? | Jul 29, 2009 |
Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
What I am trying to say, and yes I know, I am not going about this in a very methodical or professional manner ... is that the very IDEA of classifying these questions is simply ... how shall I put it ... wrong. I just don't see that it can actually be done.
It can be done. It has been done over a million times, I think...
I have given it a lot of thought, and I just cannot seem to understand what a non-PRO question would actually look like
We gave you quite a few examples in this thread, I think.
You may not be aware that many unregistered visitors (sometimes coming through other sites that have direct link into KudoZ) ask KudoZ questions that are very easy, can be found in any dictionary and there is no special context. These people are not even translators, sometimes don't even own a dictionary, they find ProZ on Google and give it a try. With the overall growth of KudoZ usage over the years, the number of these questions grew too, so some of us decided to spend our valuable time answering questions that are primarily from registered site users, and require real help. In other words, I, for one, prefer spending my time on YOUR question, instead of telling Joe Doe unregistered visitor how to say "I miss you" in Japanese. Why? Because there are many other people who could do that, but your question may be in my specialty, with perhaps a complicated context that requires some research or specific field knowledge where my contribution could be valuable.
So, you see, the categorization is actually helping YOU to get better help. If there was no such thing, then my mailbox would be full of mixed pro and non-pro KudoZ notifications and I may not have the patience to click through twenty easy ones to find your specialized question. I may just block-delete all notifications from that day, without even seeing your question.
which is why I always select Pro.
That's fine. It's easy to leave the default setting, which is set to "pro" precisely, because you are a site member. It is assumed that most of your questions will be "pro-level", so I see no problem at all.
Katalin, when I say '(at worst) the classification system might/can/could make it impossible to use the system for what it is actually for' ... I am of course exaggerating,
OK, but I thought we were having a serious discussion.
however, especially now that the system seems to have been changed
Hmm. I am not sure (again) what you mean by this. What kind of change are you referring to? I am not aware of any recent changes, so please do tell me.
so that if a question is classified as non-Pro it only goes to the Pros
Come again???
Katalin
| | | | Andy S
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:10
German to English
| Give the asker some credit... | Aug 1, 2009 |
I am not sure we have answered satisfactorily what to do where an everyday ST word has a particular, context-specific translation in the TT.
Do we in knee-jerk fashion, like hounds rooting for truffles, automatically vote for a non-PRO classification? Perhaps wilfully overlooking the context?
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I am also in favor of removing both 'PRO/non-PRO' and 'not for points' options.
(Anecdote: Once I asked an asker why was he classifying as non-PRO such specific term for the petroleum industry, and he answered: ...because he wanted everyone to be able to answer not just professionals translators....)
| | | | sylvie malich (X)
Germany
Local time: 08:10
German to English
| A good post that bears repeating (again) | Aug 25, 2009 |
writeaway wrote:
Since the rewritten rule actually links non-pro questions to non-pro translators only (!), I suggest changing the classifications to Difficult and Easy. That way it is CLEAR that it refers to the question only and doesn't relate to the Asker at all.
How absurd to state that a non-pro question is one asked by a non-professional translator!! No wonder people go ballistic when their questions are made non-pro. Who cares who is asking the question. An easy question is one that anyone can answer, with a dico or not and a difficult question is one that could even make specialists in the field do some research. That was the original idea but even that seems to have been swung around to help lower the level of Kudoz.
Yesterday, someone ranting about the fact 3 people voted an easy question to non-pro posted the following:
"Non-PRO questions are those that are asked by people who are not professional translators, and that can be answered by any bilingual person without the aid of a dictionary."
So he was in fact accusing the voting translators of dissing the Asker. When one reads the current wording, it does look like that. And it was an easy question. Well and truly.
I think the connection between question level and level of Asker should be removed. Difficult questions, easy questions. After all, that is what it's about. As long as it is allowed to interpret (certain) rules word for word, then perhaps it's a good idea to simplify them and make them fair.
Or, just remove the classifications altogether, since the wording of the current rule makes them completely meaningless. A question is a question and that's that.
way to go, writeaway...
| | | | Turz
Germany
Local time: 08:10
German to Italian
+ ...
| PRO / Non-PRO classification is useful | Aug 25, 2009 |
I sometimes vote to reclassify PRO questions to non-PRO because those questions, *with their context*, have been answered too easily (by me or somebody else, sometimes even multiple people simultaneously) in just few minutes, with a definitely straightforward and easy-to-find answer.
When only time is what matters, then the question is usually too easy.
I sometimes vote to reclassify non-PRO questions to PRO because:
1) Simple terms are asked in a specific context, for w... See more I sometimes vote to reclassify PRO questions to non-PRO because those questions, *with their context*, have been answered too easily (by me or somebody else, sometimes even multiple people simultaneously) in just few minutes, with a definitely straightforward and easy-to-find answer.
When only time is what matters, then the question is usually too easy.
I sometimes vote to reclassify non-PRO questions to PRO because:
1) Simple terms are asked in a specific context, for which a brainstorming is needed or the equivalent in the target language is not so straightforward
OR
2) The question is difficult to answer for me and for those I see trying.
If the mechanism is abolished, I'm afraid that those same people who currently rush on PRO questions (and usually get them wrong) would rush on non-PRO questions to get points.
If one doesn't want to spend time in reclassifying, he/she doesn't have to.
My opinions about the other topics in this thread:
- I would appreciate a renaming of the feature to Difficult / Easy.
- I still can't get the usefulness of "not for points" questions. If a question is difficult, points should be awarded as an incentive for professional translators to help in their spare time (instead of surfing Facebook or something like that). ▲ Collapse
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