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amont
devancé par courriel
May 12, 2015 16:29
9 yrs ago
French term

devoir/droit

Non-PRO French to English Social Sciences Social Science, Sociology, Ethics, etc. 18th-century monopolies & exclusive rights
Rappelons que les monopoles d’invention, censés répondre au dilemme des économies de la connaissance, doivent résoudre la tension entre l’incitation à la production de savoirs nouveaux et la promotion de leur usage en société. Les privilèges exclusifs sont la première forme que revêt ce droit et participent ainsi d’une « organisation de l’invention ».

I'm struggling with the use of 'doivent'. Also, am I right in thinking that the 'droit' referred to in the second sentence refers back to the 'doivent' of the first sentence? Here's my rough translation:

We should note that invention monopolies – which were understood as a response to the dilemma of knowledge economies – were expected to resolve the tension between the incitement to produce new knowledge and the promotion of the use of this knowledge in society. Privileges of exclusivity were the first way in which this right was assumed, by thus participating in an ‘organisation of invention’.

(register should be academic)
Proposed translations (English)
3 +1 needed to
4 must
4 have to

Discussion

Delaina (asker) May 13, 2015:
Yes, valid point @Daryo; but the way I see the text as a whole it it's very much discussing the role of monopolies at they were in the 17/18thC; but I'll be sure to review the tense of this particular passage and give it some careful consideration.
Great work everyone, thank you.
Daryo May 13, 2015:
probably too late to change the whole text, but I see no need to use the past tense.

The present tense was used in FR because the text is about relations between various concept, them being the same today as they were then then or since any of these concepts was created.

for example, the concepts of market, offer and demand are "timeless", and even when discussing the economics of the Roman Empire, it's perfectly logical to use the present tense if discussing relations between these general concepts.

ALSO

Les privilèges exclusifs sont la première forme que revêt ce droit

logically "ce droit" can't be "les monopoles d’invention" if "les monopoles d’invention" [IOW "privilèges exclusifs"] are only one instance of it;

ce droit = "le droit de protéger sa propriété intellectuelle" NOT "les monopoles d’invention"

if refers to some previous part of the text where the general notion of "the right to protect your inventions" was defined or mentioned.
DLyons May 13, 2015:
Maybe more like ...

We should note that monopolies of invention, intended as a response to the dilemma of knowledge economies, needed to resolve the tension between encouraging the production of new knowledge

... which could be further improved!
Tony M May 13, 2015:
@ Asker Do note that you still have a very FR construction with 'incitement to' and promotion of' — it often leads to better style in EN to change these expressions using a noun into ones using an active verb — certainly in your second instance, I think this is quite important, and it can be made to work for the first instance too.
Delaina (asker) May 13, 2015:
Thanks for the help: update Thanks very much everyone for your help. Here's how I currently have the translation:

It should be noted that invention monopolies – which were intended as a response to the dilemma of knowledge economies – needed to resolve the tension between the incitement to produce new knowledge and the promotion of the use of this knowledge in society. Exclusive privileges were the first way in which this right was assumed, thereby participating in an ‘organisation of invention’.
Delaina (asker) May 12, 2015:
Yes it is, @DLyons!
DLyons May 12, 2015:
Liliane Hilaire-Pérez? If so, "needed to" may be appropriate.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 12, 2015:
General comments I agree that once a couple of choices have been made with which verb to use and which tense works, then there is the matter of hierarchy. If thre is a question of degree between the various verbs in the extract, then I think that Delaina will play around with the pieces of the puzzle to get the best fit.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 12, 2015:
Censé Can be translated quite well here as "meant to be..." or "were meant as a..." or "were intended as a..."
Ghyslaine LE NAGARD May 12, 2015:
This is going in the wrong direction since "to have to be" = "devoir être" and "to be required to"= "devoir faire"; devoir by itself is simply "must" or "had to" depending on the tense. We can only go by the text and information given and any "wrong" extrapolation only adds confusion.
Tony M May 12, 2015:
@ Asker I think one of the problems you may be having here is in your choice of terms for the two verbs 'censés' and 'devoir' — it seems to me that 'understood as' doesn't really convey the meaning of 'censés' correctly, which surely has more the sense of 'were intended to...' (cf. you own 'expected'), whereas 'devoir' is a whole lot stronger; as I've suggested, the notion of 'were required to...' or 'had to...' (past tense of the modal verb 'to must'!), or even possibly 'needed to', where there is no obvious subject that might be doing the 'requiring'!
Tony M May 12, 2015:
@ Asker Although this is not a serious contender in your current context, do just bear in mind that 'devoir' sometimes has the sense of 'to have to be' or 'to be required to be' — maybe that might help us all think outside the box a little more?
Ghyslaine LE NAGARD May 12, 2015:
In terms of the meaning it is "must"
Ghyslaine LE NAGARD May 12, 2015:
Thanks for your clarification and on that basis the use of "had" is indeed correct however it all depends on what tense you have used for the rest of the text to make sure that the chronology is respected.
Nikki Scott-Despaigne May 12, 2015:
As this is in the past, then a strict rendering would give "had to" for "doivent" here. However, I do like your choice of "were expected to". It describes a requirement which has to be met. The passive voice is often a natural choice. I think it is a good fit in context.

Suggestions:
- "Note that..." or "It should be noted that.." rather than "We should note that...."
- "Rather than "by thus participating in..." how about "and thereby took part in..." or "this right, thereby participating in...".


As I understand it, "droit" is referring back to the "monopoles d'invention".
Delaina (asker) May 12, 2015:
Thanks @Ghyslaine LE NAGARD: I'm using the past tense in English as the 17th/18th centuries are being discussed in the French (which is using the historic present). But I guess the present could possibly be used here for 'must'. Any more thoughts on the meaning here?

Proposed translations

+1
5 hrs
Selected

needed to

That's my understanding of how Hilaire-Pérez uses it.
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M : Great! So I wasn't so far wrong in my hunch, even though I have no idea who this Perez Hilton person is ;-)
4 mins
Thanks Tony. Professeur d'histoire moderne - like many academics, not an easy read but interesting original research. Yes, think you were spot on.
Something went wrong...
3 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "I agree that the present tense also works in English in this sentence, but the past is needed considering the text as a whole. Therefore 'needed to' works better than 'had to', as the latter begs questions such as: why did they have to? Needed to is less confusing."
5 mins

must

it is an obligation; "were intended" does not convey the obligation not to mention that "were" is the past tense whereas "doivent" is the present tense.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Tony M : Actually, the 'present-in-the-past' like this is not uncommon in FR, and often requires translation using a past tense in EN; however, I certainly agree about the much stronger idea of 'obligation' conveyed by 'devoir' (cf. 'censé' = 'intended')
4 mins
Disagree with you; nothing in the sentence indicates that this is not current on the contrary and nothing to do with "présent historique" ou "présent narratif" which do require a past tense in EN
neutral Nikki Scott-Despaigne : Judging by the Asker's choice of the past in her sample rendering, I understand the context is indeed past, thus "had to" rather than "must".
22 mins
Cannot understand why anyone would judge on something the asker is questioning meaning that she is unsure as to what should be used ! Does not make sense.
neutral DLyons : Wrong tense at least.
3 hrs
neutral Daryo : the underlying logic goes in the right direction, but "must" is too strong; it's not some obligation to be fulfilled under threat of enforcement action... it's more a kind of necessity (necessary if the economy is to function well..)
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
21 hrs
French term (edited): devoir

have to

Rappelons que les monopoles d’invention, censés répondre au dilemme des économies de la connaissance, doivent résoudre la tension entre l’incitation à la production de savoirs nouveaux et la promotion de leur usage en société.

We should not forget that invention monopolies – which are supposed to be the answer to the dilemma of knowledge economies – have to resolve the tension between stimulating the creation of new knowledge and promoting of the use of this knowledge in society.
Something went wrong...
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