ProZ.com Translation Forums

Swearing | The intent is more important than the language.

Gene Selkov — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 15:05:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Gene Selkov
Post title: The intent is more important than the language.

The grammatical structure of the language is probably the least important in this, although I tend to agree that if the expression of the intent is cumbersome (due to the peculiarities of grammar), it is less likely to have the desired effect.

And we judge the effectiveness of such things by observing how they work for somebody else.

A dominant male ape or a bull cannot say "fuck you" in English; instead he will often simulate copulation with the recipients of his message, as a quick and easy way to assert his dominance without fighting. It is so much easier to do than even simulating a fight would be.

Everybody watching the act will understand what it means and will attempt the same trick when the moment seems right. Naturally, the negative reinforcement also takes place. Imagine (or go to a zoo and watch) what happens when a weaker ape tries to say "fuck you" to a stronger ape. Ouch.

If you care to look, you will see that these behaviours are panzootic, and as such, are not affected by the grammar too much.

Regarding the relative mildness of such expressions in Gàidhlig, if that is true, I would certainly like to hear a native speaker's assessment, but after a quick reflection, I can suggest two possibilities. One, it appears that in Gàidhlig, a lot more is said in passive voice than in English, probably making it just a tad less efficient. Compare: "Tha mi ag iarraidh uisge" and "I want to drink". But a much stronger factor, I believe, is that Gàidhlig is a niche language and therefore you don't really see too many examples of striking success to copy. Not because it is impossible to achieve a striking success (I would that hard to believe), but because you don't see it on the telly as often as "fuck you" said by a popular Hollywood hero.

Swearing | But why?

Sheila Wilson — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 18:00:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Sheila Wilson
Post title: But why?

[quote]kmtext wrote:
If I do swear, it's usually in English, because it's a language that lends itself well to swearing.[/quote]

But why is this, do you think? Is it because we place adjectives before verbs? Or because it's a language full of short words (at least, spoken English is)? Because we naturally accentuate syllables? Or is there something else about my native language that makes people want to swear in it? :-)

Sheila

Swearing

kmtext — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 14:46:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: kmtext

- Is swearing too commonplace?
I would say yes.

- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
Not really, but I do get a bit bored in conversations when every second word is a swear-word - and I'm 42.

- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
I tend not to swear very often, and only when I'm really annoyed. I was brought up to believe that swearing is a useful tool in language, but should be used sparingly. There are usually better ways to get your point across and it's a shame to know all those other words and not use them. If someone swears a lot, I tend not to give too much weight to what they're saying. If someone who rarely swears starts to let fly, people usually sit up and listen.

- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
I'm native in Gàidhlig and English. Swearing in Gàidhlig tends to be fairly mild, although it has its moments. The more serious stuff tends to take the form of a phrase rather than one word, and can be extremely offensive. If I do swear, it's usually in English, because it's a language that lends itself well to swearing.

- How has swearing delevoped in your native tongue?
Not sure about this. Most swearing in Gàidhlig is fairly blasphemous if that's any help.

- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
Unfortunately, yes.

Swearing | There is no magic in swearing

Gene Selkov — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 23:56:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Gene Selkov
Post title: There is no magic in swearing

I am sorry for a late response (have just received the question), but in case it is still an interesting topic, I can contribute a bird's eye view of it.

I think I picked this idea from Michael Swan, a very long time ago, so can't give a precise reference. I think he had a section on swearwords in his book on English usage, where he wrote that such words are essentially group tags. One illustration of this argument that I recall was that, historically, if there was a superior caste, let's say, priests, they would come up with a set of words that only they could use, attempting to prohibit their circulation among the lower castes. This illustrates the "taboo" aspect of swearing. If you use their words, you are a violator, they feel offended and issue a punitive response. Note how those of us here who still associate themselves with priests respond to the names of gods and such. But there are other distinct aspects, such as expression of emotions or racism.

In general, though, if you think of a swearword as an article of group identity, and analyse it in the context of general animal behaviour (not just human), you will see that Swan's idea of tags (if it was indeed his) makes a lot of sense. I have been testing it, both intentionally and accidentally, for a quarter-century, and it seems to have stood all tests. Also, it lends itself to interesting generalisations.

In general, animals need means of expressing emotions, claiming their place in the hierarchy, and on top of that, we are all racists.

Words are just one of several means of expression; whether or not you think the use of words is peculiar to humans does not matter. if you are into semantics, you can easily generalise what we call "speech" to the level of "communication", which will consist of "messages", and if you can further analyse "messages", you will probably come up with the idea of a "word" as an atomic message unit. Whether it is carried by a sound or a gesture, or other means, will not matter. What matters is that you get the signal across.

What makes a word a swearword? Is there such as thing as a swear-message? Can one assume a swear-stance or take on a swear-look? It only takes a moment of reflection to give an answer to each such question, supplementing it with abundant examples.

When you hear somebody important say "Do!", while somebody else, also important, says "Don't!", and you feel you have to take sides, the words said on your side become swearwords on the other, and vice versa. If you hear a word used exclusively by a group of people to which you hold contempt, it becomes a "dirty word". If the use of a certain word is associated with consequences, especially unpleasant or dire consequences, it is a "taboo word".

From this more distant and abstract vantage point, you can easily see, for example, how a foul word can become a taboo word. If you get your a$$ kicked by your parents for saying a "dirty word", it becomes a taboo, and when you do dare say it, the act of overcoming a taboo probably gives you an adrenaline rush of the kind you want to repeat, so no wonder you might later use it simply to express a strong emotion, or to reinforce it (note that in my use of the dollar signs, I did not mean for the word to appear less offensive; I simply think it is more fun that way). The differences between "taboo", "foul", "offensive" and "expressive" are fairly fluid, but I think you get a much clearer picture if you start from first principles. Sometimes, generalisation reduces complexity.

I can't forget a couple of my former office mates, who were both from India, but apparently from different worlds therein. They both spoke good English, sat next to each other in the office and appeared as co-authors on some publications. One thing they did not do, they did not eat lunch in the same room. As I was told, that would have been a dangerously dirty thing to do.

I could continue with a bookload of examples, but so can you, and it is getting late.

[Edited at 2011-11-24 00:20 GMT]

[Edited at 2011-11-24 11:07 GMT]

Swearing | swearing in German just sounds less educated

Prozo — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:50:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Prozo
Post title: swearing in German just sounds less educated

I have lived in America and England for quite a bit and I don't find the English swearing that offensive. Especially not when it comes from an American. THey use swearing words every other sentence. I once saw an american movie dubbed in German. I found it tasteless and not funny at all since they also included all the swear words. A few weeks later I saw the same movie in English and realized that in English those words are just not as disturbing as they are in German. If a German used that many swear words he/she would sound less sophisticated and people would start avoiding that person.

I get the impression that- at least in American English- it is just what you do...

Swearing | Shifts with the generations

Christine Andersen — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 10:23:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Christine Andersen
Post title: Shifts with the generations

I do object to real swearing, but distinguish it from the need to let out some expletive on the spot when --- well, when you can't help it!

I'm 61, and don't swear much myself. When I do, I tend to say b***y h*ll and sound feeble. :-D
When thinking in Danish, I use a so-called ladies' oath about the plague, which is considered quite mild these days, or revert to English.

As a young child I was isolated from swearing, and my father's one expletive, OH BOTHER! had to serve all purposes. Which it did - the inflection and tone of voice indicated whether he had just dropped the soap in the bath, was faintly annoyed, or working up to the next expletive: I WON'T HAVE IT!! (Which meant we children were in serious trouble....)

My mother knew a few ancient Icelandic-sounding expletives, but rarely used them. Oh, dear! and JUST STOP IT! NOW! were all she needed when we were listening, and again, the tone said it all. The phonemes barely mattered. She did occasionally work herself up to BLAST IT! when we were older.

Many juicy expressions were probably used in the part of Bombay/Mumbai where we lived, but we did not learn the local languages - small children were not allowed out alone. A colourful troop of actors who specialised in Shakespeare taught me some new words, but I never understood any of them as swearing...

Back in the UK and at school, we did hear more of real life, but we not have TV for years, and the wickedest language we ever heard was Kenneth Williams on the radio... although we were encouraged to read almost anything in print.
_____________________

In Denmark swearing apparently shifts with the generations.

I read once that many of the oldest expressions were associated with disease and the plague or the devil. Then came appeals to the Almighty, which were very wicked some hundred years ago, at least in west Jutland, where my mother-in-law grew up.

My husband's generation went over to lavatory expressions. I remember teaching our son to use a rather childish expression for doggy mess on the street, while muck on the farm was muck, because his grandmother would not like the equivalent of sh*t coming from a child!

I still hate those lavatory expressions, but then came the fashion for swearing in English, which 'did not count as real swearing' in some people's eyes.

I banned it in my house with reasonable success - my son's friends took the hint when I told them intelligent young men like them needed a wider and more imaginative vocabulary!

The young people of today use a language that sounds really horrible to many of us - in English and Danish, but when they swear, many use the English four-letter-words they have learnt on TV.

Swearing | Part of an all-round education

Sheila Wilson — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:21:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Sheila Wilson
Post title: Part of an all-round education

[quote]Suzan Hamer wrote:
When I had my daughter I didn't use any replacement words. I just refrained from using any such words... until she started school and began using those words herself. Then I figured it was OK for me to say them in front of her too.[/quote]

It's not appropriate for very young children, but there comes a time when a child SHOULD know such words. They exist, they could be aimed at your child, and he or she should be armed with some idea of what they mean and how to respond.

I normally teach adults, in business English. They really don't need to know an awful lot of swear words as they will mostly be in rather formal situations (and they already have a couple of choice internationally-known words). But I once taught a French adolescent who was going to school in America. With his parents' permission, I actually concentrated on swear words, slang, derogatory remarks, etc. It seemed to me that the playground was where he was going to be most out of his depth, and he confirmed this on his return. Unfortunately, he soon forgot most of his English skills - but he can still swear like a bilingual fish-wife! :razz:

Sheila

Swearing | Hey Stéphanie

Suzan Hamer — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 16:55:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Suzan Hamer
Post title: Hey Stéphanie

[quote]Stéphanie Denton wrote:

I didn't realise how often I swore until I had my daughter and I had to start replacing every fuck with fudge and every shit with sugar. Notably, like other peopl, when something isn't working as it should, when I hurt myself (in which case I'm often swearing at myself, should I get offended ;) ?), or when someone has annoyed me "Fudging idiot!", there isn't a day that goes by when a little fuge or some sugar slips into my vocabulary.
[/quote]

When I had my daughter I didn't use any replacement words. I just refrained from using any such words... until she started school and began using those words herself.

[Edited at 2011-11-22 18:32 GMT]

[Edited at 2011-11-22 18:33 GMT]

Swearing | Just remembered this...

Stefan Blommaert — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 12:21:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Stefan Blommaert
Post title: Just remembered this...

When I was at school in Belgium (many years ago...yes, I am definitely old!), I had a wonderful English teacher (Ms. Michiels) who, one day, dedicated two hours of her English class to foul language. Her idea was that, foul language being unavoidable, you'd better know what you were getting into in order to avoid "faux pas" that were absolutely unrepairable.

After all, when learning a language, foul language and humour are some of the most difficult aspects to acquire and estimating the "force" of such words in a language that initially is definitely not yours, is extremely difficult, if not impossible.

Swearing | The F-Word Style Guide

Stanislav Pokorny — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:40:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Stanislav Pokorny
Post title: The F-Word Style Guide

Right [url= [url removed] ]here[/url].

Swearing | Not encouraging

Lingua 5B — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:18:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: Not encouraging

[quote]Stéphanie Denton wrote:

- Is swearing too commonplace?
I believe that it has become a part of everyday language, particularly in the UK. Films, comedians, etc. do not hold back anymore, thus almost "encouraging" it.
[/quote]

They are not encouraging it, they are picturing reality.

There has been linguistic research on this, which confirmed the number of vulgar words, compounds, phrases etc has significantly increased in public use, in the past 50 years, and especially last 20 years. It took into account all levels of language use.

[Edited at 2011-11-22 11:19 GMT]

Swearing | Agree!

Stéphanie Denton (X) — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:12:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Stéphanie Denton (X)
Post title: Agree!

[quote]Wendy Leech wrote:

As for myself, I can categorically say the #1 recipient of my profanities remains my CAT tool....

[/quote]

Totally agree with you on that one, Trados brings out another side to me.

Just to let everyone know that my talk went very well, was a little surreal but your different opinions definitely helped and I can honestly say that swearing is as subjective as pretty much any other subject.

Thank you all for contributing, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts and had a good giggle at some of them. My turn to answer my own questions:

- Is swearing too commonplace?
I believe that it has become a part of everyday language, particularly in the UK. Films, comedians, etc. do not hold back anymore, thus almost "encouraging" it.

- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
At 24, I don't get offended by swearing unless it is directly aimed at me. I do get annoyed at some people's lack of vocabulary (i.e. saying fuck every two words, yet again, I get annoyed with people who say "like" and "you know" every two words...)

- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
I didn't realise how often I swore until I had my daughter and I had to start replacing every fuck with fudge and every shit with sugar. Notably, like other peopl, when something isn't working as it should, when I hurt myself (in which case I'm often swearing at myself, should I get offended ;) ?), or when someone has annoyed me "Fudging idiot!", there isn't a day that goes by when a little fuge or some sugar slips into my vocabulary. However, I do not replace every other word with a swear word, and I absolutely hate the term cunt (cringing as I write that). I find it vulgar.

- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
Depends on the person. I don't personally find many offensive, particularly not bloody.

- How has swearing delevoped in your native tongue?
It is definitely more "accepted" than when I was little. I would have had my mouth rinsed out with washing up liquid (in fact, I did once, I was sick) if I had used a swear word about 15 years ago. However, that same person who put washing up liquid in my mouth and made me sick said shit the other day on the phone to me. She blamed it on her old age. I laughed.

- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
Sorry, I didn't make this entirely clear, by next generation, UI meant children born within the past couple of years. My daughter, Émilia, is 2 on New Yaer's Eve and despite the fact that I swear, I'd hate her to swear (yes, call me a hypocrite...), but I know that is in inevitable.

I do not believe that it is a punishable offence. However, I shall have a swear pot in the house. Not just for my daughter, but for my partner and I too. Might just make us rich!

Swearing | Embarassement etc

Lingua 5B — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:10:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: Embarassement etc

Yes, we had a professor aged 75 who once made us utter profanities out loud at class, since we needed to be completely O.K. with that as future linguists.

However, this house has different rules and I don't see a point in analyzing them as they are obviously there just to be followed.

Swearing | asterisks

Jennifer Forbes — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:04:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Jennifer Forbes
Post title: *asterisks*

Dear Wendy,
The reason I used asterisks in my post was not out of "embarrassment" or "shame", but simply to avoid being censored. I wasn't sure whether Proz censors entries that contain "profanities" - many websites do.
Unembarrassed,
Jenny

Swearing | House rules

Lingua 5B — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:59:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: House rules

[quote]Wendy Leech wrote:

Whilst I appreciate that, being an English-language post, writing swear words in full may alert the censors, nevertheless barely a single person in this post has written an English swear word without the use of an asterisk. As linguists and this being a linguistic discussion, and the title of the post being clear enough to warn people of the likely content, are we still unable to write "fuck" without.... shame? embarassment? offence?

[/quote]

Why would carefulness about not being banned or warned for ProZ rules be confused for shame, embarrassment and offence? We have seen warnings about this before, so it's only natural for people to avoid it.

Swearing | asterisks

Wendy Cummings — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 10:34:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Wendy Cummings
Post title: asterisks

Having read this post with interest, I couldn't help but remark on the use of asterisks (as also commented by sblatlangtech).

Whilst I appreciate that, being an English-language post, writing swear words in full may alert the censors, nevertheless barely a single person in this post has written an English swear word without the use of an asterisk. As linguists and this being a linguistic discussion, and the title of the post being clear enough to warn people of the likely content, are we still unable to write "fuck" without.... shame? embarassment? offence?

Posters have however written out several foreign swear words in full.

I do not know the nationality of each poster, but if they are English native speakers does this imply that they are "less offended" by the foreign words? Perhaps they have not developed the same cultural sensitivities to foreign swear words as to English ones?

As for myself, I can categorically say the #1 recipient of my profanities remains my CAT tool....

Swearing | Script writing

Lingua 5B — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:40:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: Script writing

Say a writer is writing a movie script, and they have to build a character, the common Joe, who swears a lot. This is to make the character as real as possible, for this is who he is. Are they going to make the character speak more politely just in order not to offend someone watching it? Or should we be real and accept the fact this is how certain people talk?

Swearing | Comment to Sheila's posting

jacana54 (X) — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 09:34:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: jacana54 (X)
Post title: Comment to Sheila's posting

[quote]Sheila Wilson wrote:

An old woman's reply
[/quote]

Oh! If you're old at 56, then I'm certainly old at 57... don't feel that way though. Sorry to all if my posting was misleading!

About swear words in another language: it's very difficult to evaluate their impact in another language... one tends to apply direct translation without a real feel for the cultural implications.

This is wildly off-topic but somehow related: I'm not offended by words, but I'm really shocked by spiteful comments about other people... this is something that still bothers me in everyday situations and also when social gatherings turn into occasions for dissecting other people's lives.

Do let us know how your presentation went Stéphanie.

Swearing | It's not about cool

Phil Hand — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:40:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Phil Hand
Post title: It's not about cool

I just want to take issue with the easy dismissal "people just swear because they think it's cool". I honestly don't think that's true of anyone over the age of 12. Me personally, I swear despite the fact that I know that in many circumstances it's definitely uncool, because I've fallen into bad habits.

Chinese swear words don't seem to be as offensive as English swearwords. To start with, Mandarin Chinese is quite a modern, synthetic language, so it just doesn't have a long history of vulgarity. A lot of people lapse into their local dialect when they want to swear properly here (I live in the south - perhaps there's better Mandarin swearing in the north, but I've heard not). Swearing can be inappropriate and silly here (I once had a taxi driver cram four "fuck your mother"s into a ten-word sentence, which did come across as just inarticulate); and certainly you avoid it in the office. But there's less of that "swearing is a sin" reaction that you get in English, the idea that allowing the word fuck to cross your lips at all is "bad". Here, it's just, you've said the wrong thing at the wrong time and place.

Swearing | Religiously swearing

Neil Coffey — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:42:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Neil Coffey
Post title: Religiously swearing

[quote]JaneTranslates wrote:
which leads me to wonder: If they don't believe in/care about God, why bother to use his name? Why not swear by what is sacred to them?
[/quote]

Possibly a way to see this is that as a swearword, people aren't actually "using God's name": they're using what is now an arbitrary lexeme that historically derived from God's name, a religious invocation etc, but has now lost that connotation.

Swearwords aren't unique in potentially going through this process. When a Spanish speaker says "Ojalá", they're probably not actually invoking Allah. And when somebody says "bless his little cotton socks", they're probably not actually invoking any person, deity or entity to actually bless the socks in question. Do you or God then also get offended by this, I wonder?

Swearing | Yes, I do find it offensive

Claire Cox — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 00:19:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Claire Cox
Post title: Yes, I do find it offensive

... and I'm not that old - well, 50, which doesn't seem old to me, but probably does to some translators on this site! I have two sons of 19 and 22 and am aware this seems to have become the language of the playground, but my boys and their friends know very well that I won't have swearing in the house and generally abide by the rules. I just don't think it's necessary or remotely acceptable - most of the time it's done for effect and if that offends someone else, I don't think that's very nice. Television programmes where the F word is commonplace are tiresome too - I just don't see the point, so I steer clear.

I have had occasion to be offended when someone on Kudoz (you know who you are!) swore in writing when responding to a comment I'd made after posting a question and then subsequently adding more context information which I hadn't initially thought was necessary, but which he obviously did. He withdrew his answer, adding a comment with the swear word, not realising that the asker sees the comment. He did apologise when I reacted, but I still feel it was entirely gratuitous. It made me feel awful - and if that makes me old-fashioned, then so be it.....

Swearing | True

Lingua 5B — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:39:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Lingua 5B
Post title: True

[quote]Neil Coffey wrote:

You might be interested to look at talks by Stephen Pinker who talks about (and I believe has researched) the way in which swear words might be 'emotionally special' words [url removed]

The key point, which could feed into the legal arguments around swearing, is that there's a theory that on some level speakers "cannot help" but to process swearwords-- and evoke associated negative connotations-- when they see/hear them.

[Edited at 2011-11-21 17:15 GMT] [/quote]

Yes, that's true. Also, you can't translate vulgarism with a euphemism, which I saw people trying to do. Especially young translators.

Swearing | Stupid remark, but...

Stefan Blommaert — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:23:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Stefan Blommaert
Post title: Stupid remark, but...

could you please define "swearing"?

There are plenty of words that are considered to be foul language and that - when you really look at them without prejudice - are just words, nothing more...

If swearing is being used as a form of "stop words", and appears at least twice in every sentence, then it bothers me, not because it would be foul language, but because the person who is speaking (or writing, for that matter) is clearly linguistically not very imaginative.

Words, nothing more than words....Leads me to think that just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so must be swearing....And while we are at it; someone who wants to be offended (it is after all a cosy situation, the role of the offended one), WILL be offended, no matter what one writes or says. A lot of the stuff I read every day, by the way, written by people who are supposed to be educated, makes me cringe and I am offended by it, simply because I cannot imagine that people with the slightest bit of education can write such stupidities (am primarily talking about prejudices and beliefs, rather than reasoned statements). Can I now also ask them to also start using asterisks when they write?

As to the use of these *s; that is completely ridiculous. We use an asterisk in order not to write the word but we do it in such a way that the word remains clearly recognisable and understandable from what remains...Nobody in his or her right mind will write ****, instead of f*ck....the fun would be entirely gone, wouldn't it?.....Well, in my vocabulary that is called being a hypocrit....If you want to say something, say it and don't hide...No use trying to be holier than the pope (or am I swearing now?)

Stephanie, good luck with the talk! Interesting!

Swearing | An old woman's reply

Sheila Wilson — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 23:00:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Sheila Wilson
Post title: An old woman's reply

- Is swearing too commonplace?
No more, no less so than at any time in the past.

- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?
Very rarely if it's used in "context", in fact I don't generally go in for "offended", but I do raise an eyebrow when it seems wildly inappropriate. I'm 56, by the way. One thing that makes my eyebrows rise is the way the French use the F word - they seem to think it's just the same as "merde" and use it any/everywhere. It's downright embarassing sometimes! (Not offensive, though).

- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?
Of course I swear if something goes very wrong. In that way it's very "active"! But I hope I don't use swear words as common adjectives. There is always a better alternative to "bloody" etc if you aren't furious.

- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?
It clearly varies over time. I remember when I couldn't possibly use some words that now seem less horrific. An example would be the W word when addressing a man, or the C word for a woman. They aren't words I use even nowadays, but they don't have the same shock value they did when I was younger.

- How has swearing delevoped in your native tongue?
Ah, now it's questions like that that make me realise I need to go back to the UK more often. I don't really know how things have progressed/degenerated since I left 20 years ago.

- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?
In pretty much the same way as the previous generation did, I expect, but I'm sure they won't use the same words.

I'm a business English teacher and when something goes wrong in a lesson I sometimes say "merde" under my breath - I live in France, after all. My students think that's very funny (no doubt because of the accent) and say "No, you must say "sheet"!" Then we all fall about laughing!

I realise some people get hung up on blaspheming etc. but I have bad eyesight and started wearing glasses at a very young age. My parents sent me to school armed with the saying that all native English speakers know: "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." Trite it may be, but it's true. F.U.C.K. is just four letters of the alphabet - what harm can they do?

Of course, as a translator, register is all-important and I've yet to come across a text requiring the use of the F word (or any of the others I've mentioned, for that matter).

Sheila

Swearing | As a matter of interest

Charlie Bavington — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:07:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Charlie Bavington
Post title: As a matter of interest

Warning: I've used *** aplemty but this post nonetheless contains quite a lot of strong language, which some might find offensive, because even the *** don't really hide the words. Please do skip it if the rudest of rude words upset you, because I'm not trying to upset people, just making a point.

[quote]Ty Kendall wrote:

I find that the only profanity that is really still taboo (in the UK) is racist profanity. (And even this occurs behind closed doors if we're honest).

(...)

The "C" word (c**t / C U Next Tuesday!) was always considered one of the worst swear words in English, but this is becoming more common, although it might even make me blush if uttered in public.
[/quote]

It was interesting that on Fry's Planet Word, all those involved made a special point of not saying a certain word directly, referring to it exclusively as the n-word, whereas c**t was bandied around quite merrily by all concerned. Whereas in the 70s, say, racial epithets, as it were, were heard on telly all the time (e.g. Love Thy Neighbour) whereas even Play For Today couldn't have people saying c**t.

There will, I guess, always be a sliding scale of offensiveness, and words will move up and down it. There used to be a Gropec**t Lane in London once upon a time (and possibly elsewhere), back in the days when streets were named after what went on there. Agatha Christie wrote a book called "Ten Little N*****s". In contrast, now you can have a film on general release called Meet The Fockers", and French Connection can freely use the FCUK logo, both of which are surely only a thin veneer....? Motorhead were advised, in 1975, against calling themselves Bastard (now viewed so mild I see no need to *** it if Radio 4 can broadcast it in the middle of the afternoon) whereas now we have bands called Anal C**t and The F***ing Champs, inter alia.

[Edited at 2011-11-21 21:19 GMT]

Swearing | ProZ.com guidelines

Russell Jones — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 21:04:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Russell Jones
Post title: ProZ.com guidelines

There is no doubt a difference between swearing in spoken and written language, which I don't have time to delve into at the moment but the site does have a policy on the issue: [url removed] #4

A couple of years ago, there was discussion among Moderators about how to interpret the rule and it was settled that the terms mentioned in the Wikipedia page on profanities should be used as a guideline: [url removed]

Swearing | The limits of Profanity

Ty Kendall — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:26:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Ty Kendall
Post title: The limits of Profanity

On bloody

This is considered quite tame nowadays, given the imaginative stream of profanity that flows from most people's mouths. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if I heard this (in public or anywhere else).

On limits

Profanity, like humour doesn't really have limits, the more people try to restrict and define what is acceptable, the more people flout these imposed restrictions.

I find that the only profanity that is really still taboo (in the UK) is racist profanity. (And even this occurs behind closed doors if we're honest).

-Ricky Gervaise's use of "Mong" erupted into ridiculous condemnations recently, so profanity related to LDs are borderline I'd say. I tend to use them (in English & Hebrew) but I'd probably avoid on rare occasions, depending on the crowd.

Blasphemy can be found everywhere, but it is somewhat meaningless in that the U.K really isn't religious at all (various polls show around 10% church attendance - and from day-to-day experience I'd say that's inflated).

I think there's a strong correlation between profanity and driving (especially for men).

See you next Tuesday!

The "C" word (c**t / C U Next Tuesday!) was always considered one of the worst swear words in English, but this is becoming more common, although it might even make me blush if uttered in public.

The F word

It's hard to argue against such a versatile word, migrating into almost every word class (noun, verb, adjective...). I think moderate use is alright, there's nothing offensive about littering your speech with it, however you run the risk of sounding uneducated as listeners will assume your vocabulary doesn't expand far beyond expletives.

Swearing | bloody

Kirsten Bodart — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:27:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Kirsten Bodart
Post title: bloody

To JaneTranslates:

The online etymology dictionary says about this word:

"O.E. blodig, adj. from blod (see blood). It has been a British intens. swear word since at least 1676. Weekley relates it to the purely intensive use of the cognate Du. bloed, Ger. blut. But perhaps it ultimately is connected with bloods in the slang sense of "rowdy young aristocrats" (see blood) via expressions such as bloody drunk "as drunk as a blood." Partridge reports that it was "respectable" before c.1750, and it was used by Fielding and Swift, but heavily tabooed c.1750-c.1920, perhaps from imagined association with menstruation; Johnson calls it "very vulgar," and OED first edition writes of it, "now constantly in the mouths of the lowest classes, but by respectable people considered 'a horrid word', on par with obscene or profane language."
The onset of the taboo against bloody coincides with the increase in linguistic prudery that presaged the Victorian Era but it is hard to say what the precise cause was in the case of this specific word. Attempts have been made to explain the term’s extraordinary shock power by invoking etymology. Theories that derive it from such oaths as “By our Lady” or “God’s blood” seem farfetched, however. More likely, the taboo stemmed from the fear that many people have of blood and, in the minds of some, from an association with menstrual bleeding. Whatever, the term was debarred from polite society during the whole of the nineteenth century. [Rawson]
Shaw shocked theatergoers when he put it in the mouth of Eliza Doolittle in "Pygmalion" (1914), and for a time the word was known euphemistically as "the Shavian adjective." It was avoided in print as late as 1936. Bloody Sunday, Jan. 30, 1972, when 13 civilians were killed by British troops at protest in Londonderry, Northern Ireland."

Athough the origin is hazy, it is a fact that it was a respectable word, already in use from 1676. And boom, someone's misperception bombards it to be slightly offensive, falsely originating at with something like real blood, then it becomes horrid and after that it is not even printed anymore until 1936! No wonder that old man found me offensive, because 'it was no word for a lady.'

Meanings as 'God's blood' have been made because people find these words offensive and try to find a reason rather than because that's where they came from.

My point is that most 'offensive' words are products of over-zealous prudish minds which have done a lot for the art of swearing, but have only succeeded in moving the boundaries... Which was not their aim in the first place.

By the way, I write in asterisks because I am used to it (if I swear) on another forum. As I do not really know the forum rules perfectly, I rather don't take any chances...

Swearing | So common nobody minds anymore

Heinrich Pesch — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:21:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: Heinrich Pesch
Post title: So common nobody minds anymore

In Finnish you have the choice between one expression for the vagina, one for the penis, one for the devil, another for hell, and the word for faeces. The word for the vagina is so commonly used nowadays that it sounds strange when someone is able to speak two sentences without it.
Of course one can combine these expressions freely. Real swearing is an art and requires a broad vocabulary.

Swearing | Context

jacana54 (X) — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 18:13:00 +0000

Forum: Off topic
Topic: Swearing
Poster: jacana54 (X)
Post title: Context

Hi,

This is a middle-aged, middle-class opinion from the Southern Cone.

- Is swearing too commonplace?

It certainly is very very common among young people, to the point where I sometimes wonder if really lovely young girls realize that they sound like truck drivers, and other times I fear that the language has been reduced to half a dozen adjectives.

It's much less common in office settings, social gatherings of girls my age or who went to the same school as I did, and older people.

- Do you get offended by swearing (if you answer this, I am going to have to be cheeky and ask for your age!)?

No, not offended. Sometimes it gets a bit boring... do they really have nothing better to say?

For instance, I'm thinking of a show on one of the US-based TV channels, in which the characters (in their twenties) used the f- word several times in each sentence. That isn't offensive, that's lack of imagination, limited vocabulary, or a poor attempt at being funny or cool.

- Do you swear yourselves? If so, is it an active part of your daily language?

I never swear "at" people, never say "you so-and-so", but I sometimes do use swear words when objects are mean to me, as a quick way of letting off steam (you can ask one of my CAT tools!). The words I use aren't as "bad" as the ones the next generation uses.

- How offensive are swear words in your native tongue?

Oh, there is great variety, but I think lots of swear words have lost their offensive potential (through frequent use).

Another example: many people will go to football matches and shout "awful" things at the players, the referee... and back at the office on Monday they will explain with a straight face that this is simply their form of therapy. So the offensive intent of those words, while it existed at the time, was also a bit of a joke.

- How has swearing developed in your native tongue?

I'm afraid we've picked up many Argentine expressions :D ... national purity is lost by too much TV!!!

- Do you believe that the next generation are going to actively use swearing on a daily basis?

Yes, but if they all do it, I'm not worried.

Finally, I started to read your posting because of comments in the press about problems between football players (in England). I don't know the details of the case, much less what they said to each other. But that made me think that what might be offensive in one country or culture, might not be offensive in another country. And, as Steve mentioned, the same applies for different social circles.

Good luck with your talk! :)

[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:17 GMT]

[Edited at 2011-11-21 18:27 GMT]

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