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Is $0.07/word too high? What rate can be mostly accepted?
Thread poster: Caroline717
Caroline717
Caroline717
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是我从他的网站上看到的 Mar 3, 2017

ysun wrote:

Caroline717 wrote:

那家美国的翻译公司,给他的客户的报价才是$0.08一个字,你想他能给翻译多少?

通常,翻译公司不会如实告诉你,他们给客户的报价是多少。如果这家公司给他客户的价格真的才$0.08一个字,这种公司肯定不是正规的公司,混不了多久就会关张。你要相信,还是有很多翻译公司很注意翻译质量,因为他们也怕因质量差而丢掉终端客户。要保证翻译质量,他们就得花较高价钱来找好的翻译和好的译审。所以,关键就在于你要下功夫去找,就像 Lin Yang 所说那样。你先好好写一份 Cover letter 和 CV,然后选择一些靠谱的欧美翻译公司,每天发上几封、十来封信。一有空就发。如果你事先看看这些翻译公司的网站,就更能减少盲目性,提高命中率。有很多翻译公司让求职者在他们的网站上登记,输入信息。那你就直接去登记,不必再发信。这时,他们往往会要你提供 references。所以,你早晚还是得有至少三位 references。

$0.08一个字,是我从他的网站上看到的。


 
Caroline717
Caroline717
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问一圈儿 Mar 3, 2017

Lin Yang wrote:

Caroline717 wrote:

谢谢大家!联系大公司、加入ATA势在必行!

那些招翻译的小公司,因为低价,一直留不住翻译,所以必须不停地找翻译。我算看透了。有些美国公司的报价低得赶超中国了。


我见过世界排名前几位的翻译公司狠压成本,给翻译的rate很低的。反而是中等规模,甚至是几个人的小规模翻译公司薪酬合理,与PM容易沟通。这都要靠自己去摸索,久了就知道什么样的公司值得花时间经营关系,什么样的公司永远是追求更低的翻译成本,没有必要委屈自己去迁就。

我还见过一家中东的翻译公司,每次问价,但不让翻译,估计是问一圈儿,最后落实个最低价,真是很猥琐。应该是双赢的,给翻译恰当的报酬,留住好翻译。


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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Local time: 13:18
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这种公司混不了多久 Mar 3, 2017

Caroline717 wrote:

$0.08一个字,是我从他的网站上看到的。

我为什么说这种公司混不了多久就会关张?既然他给他客户的报价才 $0.08/字,那么他除了付费给翻译外,哪还有钱去找 proofreader/editor?如果该公司根本就没有 proofreading/editing 这一关,那如何保证质量?万一翻译质量出现重大问题,他就很可能丢掉终端客户,搞不好还会吃官司。有些小公司如果丢掉一个大客户,就很可能因此就倒闭。

Little Translation Mistakes That Caused Big Problems
http://www.proz.com/post/2442920#2442920

[Edited at 2017-03-04 05:06 GMT]


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 02:18
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翻译、...将约有90%会被人工智能全部或部分取代 Mar 4, 2017

李开复:未来很多工作将被人工智能取代,这五大行业能
2017-02-24 09:28:34

"未来十年,翻译、简单的新闻报道、保安、销售、客服等领域的人,将约有90%会被人工智能全部或部分取代。"

近日,创新工场董事长、创业教父李开复,在中泰证券资本市场年会上发表了公开演讲,作出惊天预言!


5个领域能赚钱,2个行业不要碰!

移动互联
... See more
李开复:未来很多工作将被人工智能取代,这五大行业能
2017-02-24 09:28:34

"未来十年,翻译、简单的新闻报道、保安、销售、客服等领域的人,将约有90%会被人工智能全部或部分取代。"

近日,创新工场董事长、创业教父李开复,在中泰证券资本市场年会上发表了公开演讲,作出惊天预言!


5个领域能赚钱,2个行业不要碰!

移动互联网时代,三巨头(百度、阿里巴巴、腾讯)霸占互联网。

但时代变革,BAT不可能永远占据"山头",而互联网行业之后的下一个风口又在哪里?

李开复给出了他的答案。

在演讲中,李开复分析了自己对互联网趋势的观察,解读了创新工场的投资逻辑,还提到了他看好的五个领域:人工智能、文化娱乐、在线教育、B2B、消费升级。

李开复说,以前,所谓的互联网用户红利,纯粹靠炒用户、烧钱、买用户、增加流量。

但是现在这个方法已经行不通了。

当整个互联网市场在爆发式成长的时候,你可以先烧出用户来,再想怎么挣钱。当互联网的成长在放缓时,要做互联网投资的话,就只能选择一些飞速成长的领域了。

此外,李开复还重申了对P2P和O2O的不看好,这两个领域要尽量避开。

首先是P2P。近两年,P2P暴起暴跌,赚钱的机会或许有,但同样有很大风险,创新工场也并没有介入这个领域。

至于O2O,这个领域同样经历过爆发式成长,但随着泡沫加剧,2016年被称为O2O企业活得最艰难的一年,大批死亡企业名单早已经让这个领域阴霾重重。

未来非常血腥,90%的人会失业

李开复一直很看好人工智能。

无论是在瑞士达沃斯、奇葩大会,还是这一次的年会,从去年到今年,李开复都在讲人工智能。

他也的确付出了行动:今年1月10日,创新工场宣布成立"人工智能工程院",意在打造一个AI(Artificial Intelligence,即人工智能)的公司,李开复亲任院长。

2016年初,AlphaGo与李世石的惊世对局,唤醒了全世界对人工智能的关注。

而对李开复来说,在1980年自己18岁、读大二的时候,就关注到了人工智能。

在经过数十年的实验室研究之后,人工智能终于开始走出实验室,进入收获阶段,比如应用于无人驾驶,所以现在也是人工智能科学家创业的最好时期。

这一次,李开复更是语出惊人:

未来五秒以下的工作将全面被人工智能替代!

同时,未来十年翻译、简单的新闻报道、保安、销售、客服等领域的人,将约有90%会被人工智能全部或部分取代。

李开复说,比如说识别人脸,比如说做一些识别语音、识别手写的字,还有一些依靠大量数据的工作,比如说翻译,这些人都没戏了,机器会全面超过人类。

还有助理、保安、司机等,无人驾驶一出来,90%的人口都要失业!

未来,很多行业会被改造,更重要的是,这会是一个非常彻底的、非常血腥的改造。因为那些不能接受互联网+、AI+概念的公司,他们会被颠覆!

引领全球,中国迎来巨大机遇

人工智能席卷全球的时代一定会到来,并且在不久的将来。

更值得注意的是,人工智能或许是中国引领全球的巨大机遇!

李开复说,中国正在面临一个巨大的创新机会,这个机会来自气势汹涌的人工智能浪潮,中国将在这波时代浪潮中扮演重要角色。

自然,这是因为中国在发展人工智能方面具有"先天优势":

1、人才储备。

高素质顶尖人才,永远是一个新兴产业得以发展的基础。

目前,中国科学家已经占据了全球人工智能科研力量的半壁江山,2015年,全球顶尖期刊上发表的43%的人工智能论文作者里,都有华人的身影。

另一方面,中国年轻人数学好,可以快速训练大批"人工智能工程师军队"。

2、约束较少。

相对来说,中国对人工智能的约束较少。

比如政策上,采取的是鼓励为主,如无人车领域。在社会层面,对隐私较不纠结,如信用、健康医疗数据等,中国没有美国的社会监督和自律期望。

3、大量资金在寻找风口。

许多中国企业坐拥海量数据和充沛资金,一旦出现新的风口,他们就会一拥而上,人工智能无疑是一个良机。

尤其是互联网企业,为了转型升级、扩大规模,都会需要引入人工智能技术。

这是人工智能的时代,也是文科生的时代

不过,如果人工智能这么厉害,那人类还有何用武之地?

当然有。

李开复说,人类最不能被取代的是文化和内容!

许是工业发展的必然,人类在过去的一两百年,太多地被逼着走向了重理轻文的怪圈,诸如文科无用、艺术扯淡的价值观谎言,不绝于耳。

学好数理化,走遍天下都不怕。

成绩差的学文科,脑子笨的学艺术。

要学就学理工科,要读就读商学院。

但随着人工智能时代的到来,改变人类生活方式的又一个奇点到了!

李开复说:

未来十年许多工作都会被人工智能取代,而正因如此,人类才有空间发挥我们的人文、文化、艺术、美;

人工智能是非常理智的,记忆力非常好,但他们真的不懂什么是美,什么是幽默,它不懂为什么毕卡索是伟大的艺术家,它也不懂为什么周杰伦是一个非常好的音乐家。

是啊,人类被当作机器用了太久,而由机器人取代我们,帮我们处理繁琐重复的机械性工作的日子终于来临了。

固然,人工智能或许会让一些行业永久消失,却是人类文明的一大进步。它解放了人类的创造力,但倘若你不去改变,就只能被社会淘汰,就只能失业。

http://blog.people.com.cn/article/1487899714323.html
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Preston Decker
Preston Decker  Identity Verified
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Beware of those who speak in certainties Mar 4, 2017

coolfool wrote:


李开复说,比如说识别人脸,比如说做一些识别语音、识别手写的字,还有一些依靠大量数据的工作,比如说翻译,这些人都没戏了,机器会全面超过人类。


http://blog.people.com.cn/article/1487899714323.html


Whoever wrote this is drinking the Google cool aid to a remarkable extent, and I'd say that the odds are better that translators will still be around in 20 or 30 years than not (though it's likewise not a certainty). The analogy I always think of is airplanes--in 1970 it certainly would have been reasonable to look at the jumps in speed of travel over the previous 50 years and extrapolate that by 2015 we'd be traveling between the US and China in less than an hour, and yet here we are in 2015 and it still takes 14 hours to make the flight. Machine translation has certainly made some impressive leaps in the last thirty years, but it is not a fait accompli that it will be able to sustain its rate of improvement in the next twenty.

Now there certainly are reasons to worry, and I'm not sure I'd recommend EN>CN translation to someone living in North America or Europe unless they loved translation because of a combination of reasons, but the "这些人都没戏了" is a bit much.


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
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讹言惑众 Mar 4, 2017

李开复说,比如说识别人脸,比如说做一些识别语音、识别手写的字,还有一些依靠大量数据的工作,比如说翻译,这些人都没戏了,机器会全面超过人类。

http://blog.people.com.cn/article/1487899714323.html

还是听听真正的权威人士是怎么说的吧:
Ray Kurzweil on Translation Technology
By Nataly Kelly
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nataly-kelly/ray-kurzweil-on-translati_b_875745.html

Will advances in translation technology ever enable us to live in a society free of language barriers? I recently had the pleasure of conducting an interview with the well-known inventor, author, and futurist Ray Kurzweil to ask him this and other questions about his views on the future of translation.

(Ray Kurzweil on Translation Technology from Nataly Kelly on Vimeo.)

According to Kurzweil, machines will reach human levels of translation quality by the year 2029. However, he was quick to highlight that even major technological advances in translation do not replace the need for language learning. “Even the best translators can’t fully translate literature,” he pointed out. “Some things just can’t be expressed in another language. Each language has its own personality, so reading literature in the original language is going to remain better than even the best human translators.” He noted, too, that very few people can actually master more than a handful of languages, and that ultimately, we will expand our intelligence through technologies that enable us to learn other languages more quickly.

In addition to text-based translation, numerous advances have taken place recently in converting spoken information from one language into another. In one of his books, The Age of Spiritual Machines, Kurzweil predicted that spoken language translation would be common by the year 2019. When asked about this prediction, he noted, “It all depends on the level of quality you’re looking for.” He added, “I wouldn’t say it’s quite common yet even though the application exists. If you really want to capture the subtlety of what people say, that doesn’t work quite yet.” He also pointed out that, even though he believes computers will reach human levels of translation by 2029, human translation isn’t perfect either, due to the many cultural concepts and parts of language are “untranslatable.”

In another one of his books, Kurzweil commented on the work of Franz Och, who later became the brain behind Google Translate. When asked what led him to highlight Och’s work at that time, he said, “I thought it was a good approach that he was using, which is to use the power of data to create intelligent systems.” Kurzweil explained that this approach seemed more powerful than trying to painstakingly describe all the linguistic and grammar rules. He also noted that if the databases are expanded even further, the quality should continue to increase over time.

Kurzweil has long held an interest in the automation of language conversion. His company created a “translating telephone” demo for speech translation more than two decades ago. When asked about that technology, he explained, “It’s not at human levels, but it’s actually adequate for small talk or for business discussions, maybe not for the most poetic, romantic sentiments, but it is a mainstream technology and it will gradually get better and better.” He explained that typically, when technologies like this are first introduced, they don’t work very well and are quickly dismissed, but they slowly get better until they are perfected. “These things kind of sneak up on us. By the time they’re revolutionary, they’ve been around, actually, for 20 years,” he pointed out, in reference to the speech translation demo.

However, Kurzweil does not believe that translation technologies will replace human translators and interpreters. “These technologies don’t replace whole fields, in general. What they do is replace a certain way of applying them.” He provided the example of music, a field he worked in extensively, and the negative reaction of musicians’ unions to synthesizers in the 1980s, driven by fears that these working professionals would lose the opportunity to make money. As Kurzweil pointed out, instead of losing the ability to make money, their profession simply evolved. “If you go to a music conference now, it’s like a computer conference with these very powerful musical tools where musicians can command a whole orchestra, and so forth, and actually do a lot more with the technology. In fact, music is more vibrant than ever and musicians are very much in demand.”

Because opportunities are changing, translation providers with inflexible business models that do not incorporate technology may indeed be at risk. However, Kurzweil sees a bright future for the language industry in general. “I think the demand for language is going to increase,” he pointed out. “These tools are going to increase humans’ ability, with the help of machines, to command greater ability to use language.” A recent report from Common Sense Advisory validates this assertion, showing that the language services industry is growing at a fast pace, and that the demand for translation even grew throughout the economic downturn.

Many practitioners believe that translation is an art, so the parallel Kurzweil draws between the music field and translation is one that even the most technophobic translators will appreciate. In fact, Kurzweil went so far as to characterize translation as “the most high-level type of work one can imagine.”
He explained, “the epitome of human intelligence is our ability to command language. That is why Alan Turing based the Turing test, which is a test of whether or not a computer is operating at human levels, on a command of language.”

Of course, it’s precisely because of the complexity of translation that humans must harness the power of machines to improve it. “These tools are going to increase our ability to use, create, understand, manipulate and translate language,” Kurzweil explained. “The idea is not to resist the tools, but to use them to do more.”

Kurzweil’s advice is right on target. This week, providers of localization will gather at Localization World in Barcelona to discuss technology among other topics, and technology will also be a primary focus of the 2nd North American Summit on Interpreting later this week in Washington, D.C. Scalability and speed are two of the main drivers for both machine translation and interpreting technologies. So, using technology to “do more” with translation is not only good advice. It’s becoming a requirement for society to cope with the explosion of content coupled with increased globalization.


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
Would you believe it? Mar 5, 2017

也许,与象棋和国际象棋一样,围棋高手们也该冷静接受现实,现在需要考虑的不是打败人工智能,而是如何让其为我所用。

http://www.geekwire.com/2017/alphago-ai-stealth-go-game-masters/


林顺喜表示,根据中国围棋等级分来看,AlphaGo目前估算已经超过4,500分,远远超过许
... See more
也许,与象棋和国际象棋一样,围棋高手们也该冷静接受现实,现在需要考虑的不是打败人工智能,而是如何让其为我所用。

http://www.geekwire.com/2017/alphago-ai-stealth-go-game-masters/


林顺喜表示,根据中国围棋等级分来看,AlphaGo目前估算已经超过4,500分,远远超过许多中国围棋高手,如古力(2,773分)与柯洁(2,764分)。他也直接说:"人类超越不了电脑,这是必然结果"。

林顺喜举例,就像人在速度上跑不过汽车。也许汽车刚被发明时还跑得过,但随着引擎改良,人类终究跑不赢。一盘棋200至300步,人类下棋不会每一步完美,但人工智慧跟资料库不断演进下,AI已经可以做到。

https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-ai-continues-to-crush-humans-at-ancient-game-go/#ftag=YHF65cbda0?yptr=yahoo


如今,谷歌旗下的Deep Mind等公司在机器学习方面取得了突破,让AI通过不断与人类棋手、与自己的分身博弈,来迅速学习并汲取经验。

http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001071326?full=y


行内人用专业尺度评价机器翻译的现实是这样:美国商务部下属的国家标准与技术研究所NIST举办的一项机器翻译研究水平评测,采用BLEU(Bilingual Evaluation Understudy)标准。 其原理是比较机译结果和人译结果的相似度,完全一致得分为1(当然不同的人的翻译很难“完全一致”,所以得分1为理想值)。2008年NIST的英文-中文的机器翻译评测结果,谷歌翻译得分0.4142,微软亚洲研究院提交的测评是0.4099,厦门大学得分0.2502;谷歌和微软亚洲的中文-英文机翻得分分别是0.2999和0.2901,中科院自动化所的得分是0.2407。

2015年9月第十一届全国机器翻译研讨会(CWMT 2015)上,中国超过10所科研所和大学参加了机器翻译的评测。同样以BLEU值为标准,英汉新闻平均得分接近0.35,汉英新闻则接近0.25,日汉新闻质量最好 — 高分超过0.5;英汉科技则普遍超过0.35,高分0.43。国内语种的机翻效果更好,藏汉政府文献的最高分0.61,维汉新闻的最高分0.54。

http://www.ftchinese.com/story/001066862?full=y


阿尔法狗三连胜柯洁不敢狂了:相同条件我也可能会输

http://www.thepaper.cn/newsDetail_forward_1443093
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ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:18
English to Chinese
+ ...
莫杞人忧天 Mar 6, 2017

coolfool wrote:

行内人用专业尺度评价机器翻译的现实是这样:美国商务部下属的国家标准与技术研究所NIST举办的一项机器翻译研究水平评测,采用BLEU(Bilingual Evaluation Understudy)标准。 其原理是比较机译结果和人译结果的相似度,完全一致得分为1(当然不同的人的翻译很难“完全一致”,所以得分1为理想值)。2008年NIST的英文-中文的机器翻译评测结果,谷歌翻译得分0.4142,微软亚洲研究院提交的测评是0.4099,厦门大学得分0.2502;谷歌和微软亚洲的中文-英文机翻得分分别是0.2999和0.2901,中科院自动化所的得分是0.2407。

让咱们看看“冠军”谷歌翻译这首诗将翻得怎样:

The New Colossus

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
MOTHER OF EXILES. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

新巨人

不像希臘名人的瘋狂巨人,
征服四肢跨越陸地;
這裡在我們的海邊,日落門將站立
一個強大的女人用火炬,他的火焰
是被監禁的閃電,和她的名字
母親的遺囑。 從她的信標手
全世界歡迎; 她溫柔的眼睛命令
空中橋樑港口雙城市框架。

“保持,古老的土地,你的傳奇般的! 哭了她
用沉默的嘴唇。 “給我你累了,你的窮人,
你擁擠的群眾渴望呼吸自由,
你漂泊的岸邊的可憐的垃圾。
發送這些,無家可歸者,暴風雨給我,
我抬起我的燈在金色的門旁邊!


“母親的遺囑”是什么?在美国修建万里长城?如果说哪天翻译人员真的都没戏了,那排在最后唱压轴戏的肯定就是中文翻译!


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
To err is machine, not to say human Mar 6, 2017

We can only trust and hope against hope that our Heavenly Father may yet let the cup, half full or half empty, pass with our drinking, albeit it tends to get little.


Machine, AI to be exact, makes mistakes, so does man. What's more, human being errs as often as not on purpose.


春晓

春眠不觉晓,
处处闻啼鸟。
夜来风雨声,
花落知多少。

Spring Morning

This spring morning in bed
... See more
We can only trust and hope against hope that our Heavenly Father may yet let the cup, half full or half empty, pass with our drinking, albeit it tends to get little.


Machine, AI to be exact, makes mistakes, so does man. What's more, human being errs as often as not on purpose.


春晓

春眠不觉晓,
处处闻啼鸟。
夜来风雨声,
花落知多少。

Spring Morning

This spring morning in bed I’m lying,
Not to awake till birds are crying.
After one night of wind and showers,
How many are the fallen flowers?

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/9zjq-q_FQ0rrT0HyYXzDeA


春眠不觉晓,
处处闻啼鸟。
This spring morning in bed I’m lying,
Not to awake till birds are crying.

后一句意思是:直到鸟叫才醒过来。对照原文,处处闻啼鸟。那原意是到处是鸟叫声。是不是歪曲或篡改原意?


没有吧,应该两句连起来看,许的翻译其实是把这两句连起来翻译了,不是完全一句一句地对照翻译,大概是为了押韵


不管是单句还是双句,请老大老老实实、诚诚恳恳告诉小的,原文里那有not to awake till birds are crying意思?许氏吹嘘三美,即意美,形美和音美。如果连最基本的第一个意美都达不到,还扯谈什么其它美呢?难道为了音美和形美就应当或甚至破坏最基本的意美?那到底是翻译还是编辑?

当然,如果他是您的远房亲戚,就趁早告知,小的就缴枪投降,不要浪费您大人的宝贵时间。


额,不是什么远房亲戚,我没有这么高大上的亲戚。翻译本来就是各有各的译法,你觉得译得不好也有你的道理,但也有很多人觉得他译得很好,各有各的看法,没有孰对孰错。我就说一下我的看法吧。原诗的意思大概是说:在春天睡着睡着不知不觉天就亮了,听见到处都是鸟的叫声。译文的意思:春天早晨在床上躺睡着,被鸟儿的叫声唤醒过来。想象一下那种情景,你不知不觉醒过来,听见到处都是鸟叫,不难想象作者很可能就是被鸟的叫声唤醒过来的。所以我对这个译文没有什么异议,觉得翻的挺好。翻诗除了把大意翻出来,还兼顾押韵,我觉得不错。当然,每个读者都有自己的看法,不必争来争去,个人觉得还是以一种比较开放的心态去看待比较好。


所以您的意思是“听见到处都是鸟的叫声”和“被鸟儿的叫声唤醒过来”是一码事。至少是“大意”。这个还是让眼睛雪亮的广大革命群众来评判吧?

可否请问大人什么是翻译?翻译的定义是什么?

如果按照您大人的高见,不是可以随心所欲地歪曲原文?反之符合您的“大意”就行。这与自己没本事搞创造,拿别人的作品来改头换面,变成自己的作品,差别大吗?而且还能说成是心胸开阔之举,多美啊。反之当然就是心胸狭窄了,如小的。

为了押韵就可以擅自修改或篡改原文?也就是说,不这样做就不能押韵?这就是所谓的水平?高人?连意美都达不到,却死要音美及形美?这不是本末倒置?

小的理解的了不起的大翻译家,是首先能忠实于原作的翻译,又能体现出韵律,再进一步还能表现出形美。对不?吹得天上有地下无,但经不起细看,还是没用吗。


嗯,好的翻译是不断修改、优化出来的,没有最好,只有更好。


“好的翻译是不断修改、优化出来的,没有最好,只有更好。”这个小的完全同意。是不是我们已取得共识:我们谈的是翻译,不是编辑;好的翻译不是编辑甚至歪曲出来的?

此其一。其二,首先是意思上要大致上过的去。举例,如果学翻译课程一年级学生将“听见到处都是鸟的叫声”翻成“被鸟儿的叫声唤醒过来”,老师是给批错还是批对?这还用问?如果一年级学生是犯错,到大师身上就化腐朽为神奇了?

再谈公平性问题。我们看到的是“处处闻啼鸟”,也就是“听见到处都是鸟的叫声”,而老外看到的是“被鸟儿的叫声唤醒过来”,也就是“Not to awake till birds are crying”。两者读到的玩意是一样的吗?对老外公平吗?是不是有欺人不懂中文呢?是不是误导国外革命群众?

也可以再谈谈上述翻译。其实这是非常简单的翻译。小的以为学过初级英文的人都行。不就是“在春天睡着睡着不知不觉天就亮了,听见到处都是鸟的叫声。”吗?这个很难吗?不见得吧?对大师来说,只不过在此基础上,尽可能押一下韵而已嘛。为了押韵而把原意改得面目全非,还能称大师吗?如果说写诗作词是戴着脚镣跳舞,那将翻译诗词是戴着手铐打太极拳。所以才要大师出场嘛。既要反映原意(对于难句当然不是100%),又要朗朗上口(对于难句其实也没有规定一定要遵循),...。

说穿了,大师在此作品上功力有欠缺。按原意翻,就押不上韵。一押韵,就非得篡改原意。这就是症结之所在。请注意,小的就事论事,是说此作品。大师的确有好作品,有非常好的作品。我们不能以偏概全,一概否认大师的大作。还是要向大师学习。但绝不盲目崇拜。更不能傻乎乎的对其错误顶礼膜拜。
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ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:18
English to Chinese
+ ...
建议 Mar 6, 2017

coolfool wrote:

不管是单句还是双句,请老大老老实实、诚诚恳恳告诉小的,原文里那有not to awake till birds are crying意思?许氏吹嘘三美,即意美,形美和音美。如果连最基本的第一个意美都达不到,还扯谈什么其它美呢?难道为了音美和形美就应当或甚至破坏最基本的意美?那到底是翻译还是编辑?

当然,如果他是您的远房亲戚,就趁早告知,小的就缴枪投降,不要浪费您大人的宝贵时间。

看了你这些话,都不知是谁跟谁在争论。上网搜了一下,才知道是你跟别人在那里争:
https://www.douban.com/group/topic/97126897/

我觉得那位 Shany 倒挺有涵养,说话也颇有水平。例如,“翻译本来就是各有各的译法,你觉得译得不好也有你的道理,但也有很多人觉得他译得很好,各有各的看法,没有孰对孰错。” 我觉这话说得蛮对,要不然为什么有那么多人都称许先生为大师,而不叫你我为大师呢?又如 Shany 说,“每个读者都有自己的看法,不必争来争去,个人觉得还是以一种比较开放的心态去看待比较好。” 所以,人家不想再跟你继续争下去了。如果你觉得许先生翻错了,可以亮出你自己的译文供大家讨论。光挑别人的错,总是比较容易,何况你挑得还不一定对呢!你说对大师“绝不盲目崇拜”,这话不错,但对别人要有最起码的尊重。这样也显得自己有些涵养。

讨论翻译问题,不宜意气用事。这般吵架的方式跟语气,与这里的气氛不大协调。所以,您最好还是请回吧!


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
Ipso facto Mar 7, 2017

When it comes to the fact that someone, particularly some Chinese, at home or abroad, even on the forum, has lack of reason, or reasons, he's bound all too often to accuse his opponent of supposedly bad attitude, like 最好还是请回吧.

 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 13:18
English to Chinese
+ ...
“最好还是请回吧” Mar 7, 2017

coolfool wrote:

Ipso facto

By “最好还是请回吧”, I meant you’d better go back to https://www.douban.com/group/topic/97126897/ and post your translation of “春眠不觉晓,处处闻啼鸟” there, and then discuss with Shany about your version. It was my suggestion only. I think I tried as politely as I can to say that.

此外,我倒不觉得许渊冲老先生是在吹嘘。许老先生成就非凡、享誉全球。如今他已届96岁高龄,仍壮心不已,打算把尚未译完的莎士比亚作品全部译完。这令我肃然起敬。像他那样有本事的人,哪怕有点傲,人们也不会介意。可笑的只是那些没本事却还挺傲的人!

http://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/9zjq-q_FQ0rrT0HyYXzDeA

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/許淵冲

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Yuanchong


 
Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 12:18
English to Chinese
古文的特点 Mar 8, 2017

coolfool wrote:

春眠不觉晓,
处处闻啼鸟。
This spring morning in bed I’m lying,
Not to awake till birds are crying.

后一句意思是:直到鸟叫才醒过来。对照原文,处处闻啼鸟。那原意是到处是鸟叫声。是不是歪曲或篡改原意?


我觉得这样译可以接受呀。

在古汉语中,特别是在字数受限制的韵文中,语序常常表达时间顺序和逻辑关系。这种关联性字面上没有,可是有点古文修养一般都能懂。


 
coolfool
coolfool
China
Local time: 02:18
Chinese to English
Not eat one's own words? Mar 8, 2017

Please allow me to talk about upright stance a bit more, here. Look, what would a senior with fatherly, or motherly, attitude say now beat it, bearing me a grudge somewhat somehow, to a seemingly stubborn, excited, unreasonable, naïve junior, however incurable, or inculcate him patiently with an open mind and try with all his, or her, might to get the babe in the woods on the right track once more? It occurs to me the guys of the sort all over the world have a knack of playing the... See more
Please allow me to talk about upright stance a bit more, here. Look, what would a senior with fatherly, or motherly, attitude say now beat it, bearing me a grudge somewhat somehow, to a seemingly stubborn, excited, unreasonable, naïve junior, however incurable, or inculcate him patiently with an open mind and try with all his, or her, might to get the babe in the woods on the right track once more? It occurs to me the guys of the sort all over the world have a knack of playing the attitude card. Why? Because, if I don’t guess wrong, the attitude has no definition. Or in other words, it can be defined whatever they want to. There’s a tongue twister on website, like: Taken by your chief for right, you’re right, even if not right; taken by your head for not right, you ain’t right, even if right. Armed with the powerful, effective weapon, the above-mentioned guys would, please allow me once again to rephrase it here and now, declare at their will of course that Taken by them for wrong, you’re wrong, even if not wrong; taken by them for not wrong, you ain’t wrong, even if wrong.

[修改时间: 2017-03-08 04:00 GMT]
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Fargoer
Fargoer
Canada
Local time: 12:18
English to Chinese
春眠不觉晓,处处问题不少 :) Mar 8, 2017

听首歌吧!

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjQzNTkyMDYw.html?spm=a2h0j.8191423.module_basic_relation.5~5!2~5~5!3~5~5~A&from=y1.2-1-95.3.1-1.1-1-1-0-0


 
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